Terrorism in London England: What would we do if something like this happened in Toronto?

[45506445210414924]

i have to agree in a way with alberta considering there oil, but i believe that the niagara hydro system in the falls would be a lilkely target, it controls most of the hydro for southern ontario along with sections of the states. yet, i highly doubt it would happen!  :rage:

 

[Slim]

i, i highly doubt it would happen!  

I wonder how many in London said that?!

 

[Gency]

Why blow the hydroelectric dam when you can just take out a few transformers. Unprotected, easy targets. Its ridiculous how simple it would be to cause another blackout.

 

[PeterLT]

If something like the London bombings happen in Toronto the Martin government would swing into action, boldly mobilize the military and RCMP, sweeping the skies with CF18's and patroling the Great Lakes with subs and frigates. Great wads of cash would flow into the Liberal friendly city. He would be labeled as the greatest Prime Minister for his quick reaction and grave concern for the safety and security of the prople of Toronto.

If the same thing happened in Calgary, Regina or Vancouver Mr. Martin would spring into action! But first he'd go on vacation (working with Mr. Kadaffy to open doors for Cdn business), then about 5 days later, Ann McLellan would express deep concern on behalf of the PM (He cares you know..). This would be followed by the appointment of several Liberal Senators and a few outstanding citizens of note to review the event and put forth any recommendations; their report due in 6 months. Then, when all the debris has been cleared, the dead buried and the wounded safely out of view, the Prime Minister would appear at ground zero surrounded by a CBC news team headed by Peter Mansbridge. Naturally, he would look concerned and have some really inspirational sound bites but will not commit any Federal assistance because "It's a provincial responsibility".

Based on experience out west, I wonder if I'm far off?

 

[Manimal]

there are a few goals of terrorism, and many times a bombing is only trying to accomplish one or two of those goals.
1) body count. military of civilian, doesn't matter.
2) an important landmark. this maybe be something like US Cole, or an embassy.
3) underminding the enemy government/powers that be.

when you hit a base, or war ship, you hit all the main goals. but body count, and underminding the gov't seem to be the most common goals of AQ, they are hitting gov't property, and public areas.... only a handful of times have the goals been to hurt the infrastructure of a area, and i bet the twin towers were more of a landmark/body count hit, they hurting the business district.

Canada is not a big player on anything that would hurt the country as a whole if it was hit. there is no precedence to hit a hydro damn, or a power plant, it would be for terror, and body count. subway in TO.... maybe the skydome, or CN tower. hitting a national landmark hits all three goals. but, subways are popular with them lately..... body count and fear are what they really want.

 

[The_Falcon]

These are from Todays Toronto SUN, some of this stuff is cringe worthy especially Howard Moscoes comments, what blithering idiot.  Unfourtunately many other people think they same.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/London/2005/07/08/1122548-sun.html

By Rob Granatstein, Toronto Sun

LEAVE IT to TTC chairman and Toronto Councillor Howard Moscoe to put the situation in perspective.

Moscoe told TTC riders yesterday not to panic.

"I would wonder if the terrorists first would have to find where Toronto is before they attacked it," he said. "Canada is not as vulnerable as the U.S. or Britain or Spain.

"We don't have any troops to pull out of Iraq."

Idiot.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/London/2005/07/08/1122547-sun.html

TORONTO THINKS ITS SAFE

By ROB GRANATSTEIN, CITY HALL BUREAU

AFTER EVERY terrorist attack, the same question is asked: Is Toronto ready?

The firm answer: We think so.

As London ground to a halt under the pressure of bombs on the city's subway and bus system, the alarm bells went off in Toronto.

"On all the available information, there is no heightened risk in Toronto," Mayor David Miller said yesterday.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, the city's emergency management team has worked on plans to ensure the city is ready for anything, including a terrorist attack. It has spent tens of millions of dollars city-wide on preparations.

Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair said the response began with early-morning phone calls between himself, Miller, Julian Fantino, provincial commissioner of emergency preparedness, TTC GM Rick Ducharme and other provincial and federal police and security officials.

"I think it's fair to say that any democratic society is a target for this kind of (terrorist) activity," Blair warned. "We can't become complacent but at the same time we monitor these situations very, very closely and there is nothing to suggest we are about to become a target."

The attacks have not altered policing details for this weekend's Molson Indy on the Exhibition grounds, he said, because there is already a strong security presence planned.

"We're being cautious because I think the circumstances overseas demand a prudent response and so we are heightening our presence on the public transportation system," Blair said.

With more than 1 million TTC riders a day, there's a lot at stake.

In the early-morning exchange of phone calls, Ducharme asked if the TTC is vulnerable and if the emergency plan should be started, and was told "absolutely not."

Instead, the TTC put its 10,000 employees on "heightened vigilance" at 6 a.m., 16 special constables were pulled off regular duty to monitor the system for anything unusual, and the afternoon rush had double the usual number of transit enforcement officers.

Ducharme said the TTC depends on the expertise of Toronto Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service for advice on how to respond.

This fall, the TTC will conduct a full simulation in downtown Toronto of how to respond to an explosion in a subway tunnel, with full emergency response from police, fire and ambulance services.

"Until you simulate it, that's where you learn where the deficiencies are," Ducharme said.

Toronto does run exercises regularly. The city also introduced a chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear team following Sept. 11, and co-ordinated it with Enbridge Gas, Toronto Hydro, other utilities and the army.

Training is done at Toronto Fire's Special Operations Training Centre, on Bermondsey Rd. There is a TTC subway train at the site for emergency workers to test their procedures. There are also a number of underground and highrise facilities for practice.

and finally the editorial

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commentary/2005/07/08/1122221.html

It's time those in charge of this nation's security started telling Canadians the truth. That is, that a terrorist attack on Canada by al-Qaida now seems inevitable.

With yesterday's atrocities in London, four of the five so-called "Christian nations" named by Osama bin Laden himself as potential targets have now been hit.

* The United States suffered through the horrors of 9/11, in which 3,000 innocent civilians were slaughtered.

* The 2002 al-Qaida bombing in Bali was aimed at Australia, whose citizens flock there on holiday. Of the 202 people killed, the single largest group -- 88 -- were Australians.

* Last year, an al-Qaida group operating in Spain attacked Madrid's subway system, killing 200 commuters.

* And yesterday, a group calling itself "the secret organization of al-Qaida in Europe" claimed responsibility for four bombings on London's transit system. Dozens of commuters on their way to work were slaughtered and hundreds more wounded, in a city that had just finished celebrating its surprise choice as the host of the 2012 Summer Olympics.

The fifth and final country bin Laden has singled out as a potential target , as Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan herself noted yesterday, is Canada -- although she added that so far there have been no specific threats. Small comfort.

According to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, at least 50 terrorist groups now operate in Canada, including al-Qaida, raising money, acquiring weapons, infiltrating immigrant communities and setting up travel networks.

What is also deeply worrying is that so many Canadians continue to believe -- tacitly encouraged, if not by McLellan, then by far too many other Liberals -- that we are safe from an al-Qaida attack because, unlike the other four countries already hit, we did not participate in the Iraq war. Yesterday, this naive attitude was on display, incredibly, at a news conference called by city officials to reassure commuters about the steps being taken to ensure the safety of Toronto's transit system.

TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe wondered " if the terrorists first would have to find where Toronto is before they attacked it. Canada is not as vulnerable as the U.S. or Britain or Spain. We don't have any troops to pull out of Iraq."

No, we don't. But we do have our soldiers in Afghanistan, where they have been involved in the war on terror from the very start, and where they have now assumed a leading role.

Meanwhile, the group that claimed responsibility for yesterday's attacks said they were in retaliation for Britain's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.While it didn't mention Canada -- threatening Italy and Denmark instead -- al-Qaida has long made its intentions about our country crystal clear.

Just last month, the Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, chaired by Liberal Sen. Colin Kenny, again warned that Canada's borders continue to be insecure.

In other words we are sleepwalking towards a disaster.

 

[winchable]

Quote from: 01sierra on Today at 10:48:13
i, i highly doubt it would happen!


I wonder how many in London said that?!

Probably not many and I think it showed in the reaction, there has been a constant threat of IRA attack in London for decades. Last time I was in London (2001) the IRA were behind a thwarted bomb attack (I say thwarted but it did end up injuring people and destroying property in a controlled explosion)

I only hope that there is something in Place in Canadian cities (especially ones with massive mass transit systems and airports) to deal with something like that and I sadly doubt there is. I told my parents that I felt safer in Birmingham yesterday after the bombings than I would feel in Toronto or Halifax, it's true because I saw the populace's reaction and the EMS reaction it was all rehearsed and the public shrugged it off (or will shrug it off) because they're experienced with it.
Even a simulating responses to actual attacks is no substitute for years of actual responses, it's an unavoidable thing and it's a matter of when.
And I'm an optimist!

Canada and the US have a number of interconnected industries and a porous border, any moderately determined operative could easily get to the US by striking something in Canada, so even if a person considers themselves safe because Canada stayed out of Iraq they might very well become a collateral victim of an attack aimed at the US because hey "We're in a bubble" or also realistically they could be the victim of a London/New York-esque attack on a major urban area.

 

[EW]

They don't accomplish maximum terror by striking military bases.  If it was a base that had been hit yesterday in the UK then Britons would have been compassionate and the world would have voiced support for the UK, but the impact on Britons would not have been as great as seeing young women, men (and likely children) blown up in downtown London.  To some degree all countries (including Canada) expect their military mbrs to be at greater risk than the general populace.  Maximum terror effect for minimal effort means reminding people that they elected their government and they are at risk in their homes.  

Besides, I suspect hitting a major urban area, where people are somewhat desensitized to strangers, would be preferable to a foreign terrorist cell than operating in a small town (Pet, Cold Lake, even Halifax and Esquimalt) or in the backcountry of Alberta. For them to go outside the major centres would be a change in tactics.  Of course nothing is certain with these folks - contrary to what people want to believe - they ain't dumb, and should never be underestimated.  But, NO country can protect everything equally at once.  I would not judge what Canada is doing against terrorism (within Canada) so much by what the military is doing - it isn't the Army's job to prevent terrorism in Canada.  Granted - it is the job of Special Forces to fight it should it show up in Canada, and it is beyond the control of the local Police.  The intelligence services (and RCMP) are fighting it in Canada every day, it is the military's job to be sent to stabilize those countries that could be breeding grounds for the terrorist of tomorrow.  And when necessary directly take the fight to those countries which directly arm and train terrorists.  This is not to degrade the Army's role in Canada, the CF's first priority is to protect Canadians in Canada, and the new "Canada Command" is a sign of that high priority, but when it comes to terrorism, the intelligence/police services are the front line within Canada.

As for the Army having to plow snow in Toronto.  Come on, who still takes that whole episode seriously as being representative of the emergency services in T.O.?  That was nothing more than politics.  You had a jumpy mayor in Toronto, combined with a Minister of Nat Defence who was a former mayor of T.O., and who represented a T.O. riding.

 

[CH1]

All the doubting thomas's in Canada are going to have a rude awakening one fine morning.  It's been 35 years since the October crisis.  A dozen ppl tied up the country for months.  What did we learn from that?  We are still short a dozen Brens, a couple of GPMG's, .50 Cals & some FN's.  Canadians have been lulled into a false sense of security.

There has been upteen little incidents that have never made the news in this country.  A terrorist like Osama probably places Canada fairly high up on his hate mail list, due to our connections to the "Evil Infidel".  We supply water, power, oil, & other resources to the U.S.  We are the soft under belly.  What a statement it would make if they hit TO, or Van, or the pipelines with water &/or oil.  Cut off the lights, etc.  Right under the nose of & in the "Evil Infidel's" back yard.

To Osama & his merry band, there is absolutely no difference between Canada & U.S., aside from the dotted line on a map.  Even rating highly as a staging ground, body counts are all that matters to these low lifes.

We as a nation have to get our act together, & start tightening up security from west to east, south to north.  WHEN our turn comes on the world stage, we will be screwed, blued & tatooed.  There is no way we are in any way prepared to deal with any situation on a national scale.

I wouldn't doubt that there is elements hatching a plan to strike both here & the U.S. simutaneously.  They probably have only one good shot at a major strike, & they'll have to make it good.

Cheers

 

[civvy3840]

a friend read/heard that the only two places untouched my terror has been Canada, and italy.... and there are reports of large number of terrorist cells hiding in Canada. we're next GOD forbid  :threat:

where would get hit, i think TO, and Ottawa are the only cities that make sense.

I don't know about that...So far they have been hitting major cities so Toronto and Ottawa are up there but they could also go for places like Monreal, Vancouver, or even Edmonton.

 

[Gency]

As an industrial firefighter within the Durham Region, and having gone on training with the Toronto Fire Department, I am confident that the TFS could handle the aftermath of a terrorist attack. Security is not our concern though, we'll leave that up to the guys with the guns.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Unfortunately it'll take an attack in Canada before some of our more idealist citizens pull their collective heads out of their collectives arses.  Until then, I will continue to expect the useful idiots to point to Iraq as the underlying justifiable cause for attacks on Americans, British and whoever else participated in the invasion, while at the same time patting themselves on the back for having sent over a couple thousand dollars worth of books for Iraqi schools....because that's how you make a real difference in the world.



Matthew.  :

 

[Manimal]

I don't know about that...So far they have been hitting major cities so Toronto and Ottawa are up there but they could also go for places like Monreal, Vancouver, or even Edmonton.

Toronto would be a prefered site because Ottawa is in ON too. and many many people see TO as the center of canada.... vancouver is too far to one end. although immigration is high there. but TO is like one of the most diverse cities in the world..... edmonton...too cold, monreal, i just don't think so, i think the whole speration think would lead them away from hitting there....and the fact it's the french part of canada, it's a unique target, but again, i don't think it fits the bill. it'll be TO, subways are on the menu, but, i think something like the skydome would be a big hit for them. filled up on game night, (note all the big attacks come once a year around summer/fall) it's a land mark, and the body count would be high. hell, why not hit them both.... i could see that.
and i fullly admit i could be bias to TO being hit cause i'm from this area, but it seems like the most likely Canadian target.

edit, and i forgot to point out, we know that there were Aq's living in TO before 9/11

 

[CH1]

Ppl would really be shocked if they saw the where's & why's of possible targets.  Fact is we are unprepared & ill equipped to deal with these threats.

Cheers

 

[x-grunt]

What would we do if something like this happened in Toronto? 

As a City/Province/Nation we would survive, and we would become wiser citizen's of the West. An attack, from someone, somewhere is inevitable I'm sure. And large scale disaster control is not out of the reach of the T.O emergency services. There have been things like the subway collision, subway fires, blackout etc. to test them in the past.

Although it may test the physical resources of Toronto (I do not know about other major centres - but my bet is on T.O as target of choice) that is not the issue. The real challenge is that as a nation we are not psychologically prepared for an attack. How can we be? We are understandably innocent and naive about violence close to home. Unlike other nations involved, we have not had to deal with wars or major revolutions on our soil in nearly two centuries. Never, in fact, as a nation. The US, UK, and European nations have had this experience in living memory. 9/11 shook our tree, but that was still in a foreign country.

That will be our challenge. And I am confident we will rise to it. We complain about ourselves, but we are a resourceful people. Although a harsh lesson, it may be the one that helps bond us closer as a nation.

 

[pappy]

IF IT HAPPENS????  Come on get realistic it's only a matter of time, it's not IF but WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN

I hope I'm wroung, I'd like to see the world fed up of this crap, but I don't think it will end soon. 

"Pray for Peace, Prepare for war" 

It will always be easier for the tangos to bomb inocent civialians then it will be for goverments to protect them.

Personally I think we (the west) should just hold a big press conference and get tough, "One more terriorist bomb and we'll nuke Mecca off the face of the earth." and be perpared to do it.  The extreamist Muslims, be they a small percentage will not nesitate to nuke the west when they get the chance.  If we don't show them we're perpared to win this war at any costs, this terrorist bombing will continue for years to come.

 

[Manimal]

i understand where you are coming from. but it's the faith that is to blame, it's a fuel for sure, but nuking mecca is not the answer. i don't have one, but i know it's going to take a lot more the what's going on now. and even with one area nuked, it doesn't stop the terrorists living in Europe, north America, or Malaysia etc. and can there even been an end, is there the man power to hunt those people in every country? it's going to take more brain power then what we have in the big chairs now to get this job done.

 

[Black Watch]

We would sound those old nuclear sirens

 

[Kat Stevens]

Toronto would be a prefered site because Ottawa is in ON too. and many many people see TO as the center of canada.... vancouver is too far to one end. although immigration is high there. but TO is like one of the most diverse cities in the world..... edmonton...too cold, monreal, i just don't think so, i think the whole speration think would lead them away from hitting there....and the fact it's the french part of canada, it's a unique target, but again, i don't think it fits the bill. it'll be TO, subways are on the menu, but, i think something like the skydome would be a big hit for them. filled up on game night, (note all the big attacks come once a year around summer/fall) it's a land mark, and the body count would be high. heck, why not hit them both.... i could see that.
and i fullly admit i could be bias to TO being hit cause i'm from this area, but it seems like the most likely Canadian target.

edit, and i forgot to point out, we know that there were Aq's living in TO before 9/11

True, I mean, Vancouver is ONLY our largest seaport on the very lucrative Pacific Rim.  Edmonton ONLY has just about every drop of oil produced in Northern Alberta flow through it...Nope, no useful targets out here, good luck, TO, isn't it great to be important?

Kat

 

[Dirt Digger]

True, I mean, Vancouver is ONLY our largest seaport on the very lucrative Pacific Rim.   Edmonton ONLY has just about every drop of oil produced in Northern Alberta flow through it...Nope, no useful targets out here, good luck, TO, isn't it great to be important?

The list of possible Canadian targets is probably quite extensive...I'm sure you could name one or two in most of the provinces.  However, Toronto does have the two factors Al Qaida gets hot'n heavy over:  Major financial district and mass transit.

Don't get me wrong...I hate thinking of TO as the centre of the world and the only "target" for terrorism.  Especially since I'm going to U of T this fall and will be taking the subway in from the Downsview 'Q patch...