The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread

[Fry]

Fry -

Maybe the gentleman's position is worth considering ..coming as it does from someone with almost as many years in the CF as you've had in life.

Prehaps his position isn't worth considering, and prehaps a comment like that isn't worth considering either.

Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.

With all my heart Joe....Please don't do it. Stay at home with your family and don't be at all swayed by the recruitment posters. The CF command is spoiled and out of touch with anything but thier own selfish pusuits, and it's getting worse. Over the past several years I have been watching many good and loyal senior NCMs jumping ship because the climate within is intolerable.

If you have a chance at a commision, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise be prepared to be used, abused and then neglected.

I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.

I just think that's rather disturbing.

 

[Joe Blow]

I'm not engaging in a pi$$ing contest with you Fry, so this is my last note on the matter:

Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.

If you read the conduct guidelines when you registered you will be aware that this is not an army (DND) website.  Although it is made clear that the comments here are generally reflective of the CF image and that we should be mindful of that, it is also made clear that these cautions are meant to apply most specifically to respect among users and the use of profanity.

My experience here is that it is a great place for frank discussion of affairs ..discussions that often include colourful complaints about deficiencies in this or that area.  In fact this too is addressed in the conduct guidelines.

..That's not to say we can't bemoan the current state of affairs - it's a soldier's age old right to complain. But let's keep it clean and dignified.

Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.

While I think that your dislike for comments that disparage the CF (even to the point of advising someone not to join) is based on a well placed pride, I don't think we should let that pride blind us from comments about the CF that we would rather not hear.

Again, the fellow has 18 yrs experience in the CF if he has something to say about it, or some advice to give, we should listen.  If what he has to say bothers you, consult others to get a broader perspective.

Anyway, as I say, this is my last note on the matter.  I apologize for the distraction and invite everyone to continue with this valuable discussion.

PS:

I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.
~
I just think that's rather disturbing.

Yeah.  That does seem strange.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

I am still waiting for information to update the original post of the topic... but give me a moment to preach.. don't read on because I am venting...  :



hmmmm.. I just sat and added up the years of loyal service, both to land and air elements, that was given by my immediate family  169 years of DEDICATED LOYAL service.  Most of this time was given during a time when silence was needed, like 'loose lips sink ships'

I have lived thru WWII, the 'Morocan Uprising' when they fought in France for independence, the 'Cold War', the 'Cuban Crisis'.

WWII - rations, service members families going hungry in Canada, wives trying desperately to care for their families without support. Those wives gathered together and made it through. WITH PRIDE. Husbands and Dads returned to be nurtured by families, back to health. That is history.

The Morocan Uprising - the families, that accompanied members when NATO went into Europe after the war, were shot at and abused. Kids, wives and members all went through this WITH PRIDE (both Military Pride and Canadian Pride). That is history.

The Cold War - Around the world Military families supported members by living with sirens controlling their lives. With Husbands and Dads running off during dinner (at any time during a day or night) while the family went to temperary bomb shelters in their basements. We did this with PRIDE. That is history.

The Cuban Crisis - while we sat nervously awaiting news about our loved Military Members as they served to protect us and their country by always being ready, by flying around Russian ships that transported missles/bombs along our Atlantic borders to Cuba. Ships and Aircraft crews AND FAMILIES did this with PRIDE. That is history.

4 examples that many of us can tell stories about, NOW we can tell stories, but at the time we also knew that 'loose lips sink ships' BUT and that BUT is big. These men did not expect our government to turn their backs and outright lie about happenings on Canadian soil that would eventually take their lives. I have said often that the main problem about this AgentOrange and other sprayings of ANY defoliant is not the tragedy. The tragedy IS THE LIES. Our Military Members all serve with PRIDE and they expect Canada (civilian, military and government) to support this service with RESPECT. Times have changed and we can now talk and discuss and GET ANGRY when we see injustice. We can speak out and ask for change so that future Service Members can get the respect they need to do their tasks without being concerned about dying DUE TO LIES... If you think we should stay quiet, your very very wrong.

If you think we can stand up and respect these Members and the others that were and will be damaged, because OUR GOVERNMENT is still continuing on the same path of ,lying for damage control, STAND WITH US. Let us be angry. We feel we must speak out and protect the future soldiers, airmen and sailors that should not have to go through the same kind of torturous death without the RESPECT they deserve and have earned. Our loved ones have died and are still dying and our children have afflictions they should never have had to grow up with. A lot of the suffering could have been taken with the same PRIDE of service, if our government had just RESPECTED these families and Canadians in general by letting us all know the reasons by sharing information openly. We have asked ourselves the question 'WHY' for to long. WHY am I sick? WHY is my child sick? WHAT can I do? HOW can I help my child? I am dying, WHY? WHO will help my family when I  am gone?  My husband asked all these questions and he got no answer. I miss him laughing with me as I try to figure out how to replace a bent stud on the wheel of my car. I miss him laughing with me cause the lawn mower simply will not start for me. I miss him when I go for a drive and have to be sure I am going to find the right road to my destination. I simply MISS him, and I could have had him with me longer IF. So please don't critize when we (those marked by the AO LIES) get angry. Instead STAND WITH US and help us to make change for the future. STAND WITH US as we ask for the RESPECT for all Canadians that have lived with this for so many years.

"STAND WITH US" means educate yourself, speak out if you feel an injustice was/is done. Help us to protect future Canadians by asking our government to be honest because that is all we are asking. We want the government to give every Canadian the same respect they expect us to give them.  btw.. the military offices are not being very helpful either.  www.agentorangealert.com is a good website to start at if you want to become educated about this topic.

 

[Robert]

Well , here i am... i would never have known about what was going on at CFB Gagetown.
I now live in Alberta and just happened to read the Edmonton Sun (newspaper).
For many years i just didn't understand what was going on with my family.
Or myself for that matter. My uncle Emile died 3 1/2 years ago.. cancer of the liver.
My mother died 2 years ago in July. Cancer
my cousin Paul died 6 months later...cancer of the liver
My aunt Alicia died 2 months later ..... cancer of the liver
We all lived in Burton, which is next to the firing range.
I think from reading all the letters on this site , i think all of them are right.
Something was going on out there , and yes i also used to play close to the base and the training area.
Back then it was happy times , living in the country and me and Paul (Paul was 6 months older than me) and we never thought for 1 second anything about agent orange or agent white or that have you.. and if it was ever printed in the paper i know my grandmother would have told us not to go anywhere near .I lived in Burton till me and Paul went west when we were 17. He returned home a few years ago and later died.I'm still here in Alberta with the same thing that had killed him.. Just waiting for my time.
I have been tested and i have a liver disorder.. same as Paul.
I have a hard time believing that this is just something that just happened to just my family..  but by the letters... it is happened over and over to a lot of people.all from the same area...
Thanks Robert

 

[Doreen]

Sorry to hear about you and your family Robert.  Seems there's a whole generation of us already dead or dying of Cancer and nobody really seems to care except the people directly involved.  I have no doubt the Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia will get me before the government does anything.  Good luck to you and your family. 

 

[Robert]

I was just thinking , i come from a large family.
And the only ones that don't have health problems are the ones that was away from home after 1963.
One uncle that lives here in Alberta, an aunt that was living in Garmany and my sister that was living in Fredricton... Out of evey one that lived in Burton (in my family)only 3 of us are alive... my grandmother had 8 kids , and all but 3 are dead now.I would like to hear from other families in the burton area and see if its the same case or not..
Well i know nothing much will come out of this , as like everyone says about the goverment.. they will drag there feet.. and i might be gone by then but i hope that some day for my kids peace of mind that they will know what realy happened.. I know i would love to know if this is why (the testing in cfb gagetown) is the reason for all the deaths and sickness.. I will hope to know ...
I hope everyone keeps up the fight . As this should not be treated like area 51 ..
Thanks again : Robert

 

[Mack]

Hi Robert,

Very sorry for your plight and that of your family. I want to pass this link on to you........

http://www.agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm

I didn't see your name on the petition, so am assuming you may not know about it. There is some hope Robert; the tender for bids on the contract to do the testing has been posted. A plan/statement is expected next week from the federal gvmnt. Jody Carr is hammering away at the feds, and getting attn. The board has been formed, and Col Jestin has been very helpful in heading up info gathering meetings. There is also Art and Ken working very hard, and they'll be the last people in the world to let go.

I would like to see you cut and paste your posts to the forum in the link above. Check there for more current news. Sign the petition and pass it along to all in your address book. Do you know about the class action suit? If you are worried about your legacy to your children, maybe it would give you some comfort. I see it as a tool to force the truth to the surface.

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Up to how long ago would this chemical be present in Gagetown and would it still be effective?

 

[Mack]

The question will be answered accurately and completely when the environmental testing report is in. According to published info, Dioxin could surely be in the environment. It has a half life of 9 years. There are other chemicals of concern such as Hexachlorobenzene. Some links below....


http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pbt/hexa.htm

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/dw_contamfs/hexachlo.html

http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/

http://oaspub.epa.gov/webi/meta_first_new2.try_these_first

 

[Sandy Skipton]

I have no update on my husband's autopsy. We wait and wait and wait.  Once again the government causes frustrations from those that are involved,, as is shown by the following post taken from www.agentorangealert.com

August 12, 2005

There is still nothing from the committee studying the spraying at CFB Gagetown. On Wednesday August 3, 2005, we were told by CBC.ca that "An aid to Fredericton MP Andy Scott said on Wednesday that the government will be announcing it's action plan on Agent Orange next week. Andrew Holland said the government will deal with community outreach issues and the environmental testing among other things.

Holland said it's taking so long because it was difficult to co-ordinate all the departments involved, and get everything passed by the treasury department."

The following day on August 4, 2005 the CBC.ca reported that MP Andy Scott said that an announcement regarding Agent Orange would come soon. Scott wasn't specific about when the announcement would come, but said it would be very soon.

Also on August 4, 2005 The Edmonton Sun reported the following "Steve Jurgutis, spokesman for Defence Minister Bill Graham, said a "plan to move forward" will be released in coming weeks.

The committee needs to inform the public of its progress. Everyone is being left in the dark. It is necessary for the committee to keep us informed. It needs to tell us what, if anything it has accomplished thus far. The public understand that it is not an overnight process but to give us a time frame and then change it and feed us terms like "NEXT WEEK", "SOON" "VERY SOON" and "IN COMING WEEKS" is unacceptable. I will repeat .."UNACCEPTABLE". Time for the committee to become transparent. As I have said from Day One.... Do the right thing.


Now while we wait for "next week",  "soon", "very soon" and of course "the coming weeks" to appear whatever shall we do? Hmmmmmm.... I know! Perhaps we could try to find out where in the PMQ's the 4 contaminated sites are (or were) containing PAH's (polycyclic aromatic compounds) which have been shown to cause skin cancer, while inhaling the substances can cause cancer to other parts of the body.

-Art

 

[Doreen]

I would dearly love to read more about the 4 contaminated sites.  Can you help.  They actually demolished the pmq that I lived in.  Would be interesting to know why.  Thanks for your help.  I will be getting tested for toxidity levels soon.  I spoke to my leukemia specialist and my rare form of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia has him very interested to test me for toxicity.

 

[Sandy Skipton]

to see the contamination report you can go to www.agentorangealert.com  click on forum and go down the page til you find Aug 4 date... the report is long and it seems they are not pointing to specific PMQ's .. just reporting that there are contaminated areas.. maybe so no one panics or could it be that they want everyone to panic... sorry just a strange thought, panic is not the way to go about any of this. Educating ourselves about this problem and speaking up is a much better way to find results.

While you are at the agentorangealert website, please click on petition as well because that is one way to speak up. Check out the agentorangealert site, it is a site that was developed just so we can exchange information and stay up to date.

 

[Strike]

They actually demolished the pmq that I lived in.  Would be interesting to know why.

Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.

 

[aesop081]

Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.

They demolished over 300 the first year i was posted there as they were "beyond economical repair".  The following year, the demolished more.  Why is it all of a sudden, everything needs to be blamed on agent orange ?

 

[Strike]

aesop,

Dude, I feel your pain.  But people are scared of what they don't understand, and unfortunately, the agencies involved are doing little to alleviate their fears at the moment.

 

[Doreen]

Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.

I wish I could be just as sure that my Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (the identical very rare form as Brigadier General G. Sellar's) had nothing to do with Agent Orange. 

Guess I will know when the Haematologist does my toxidity levels.  I just know two kids and two grandkids are going to lose their mother and grandmother far before her time.  (that being me of course).

 

[aesop081]

Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.

I wish I could be just as sure that my Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (the identical very rare form as Brigadier General G. Sellar's) had nothing to do with Agent Orange.  

Guess I will know when the Haematologist does my toxidity levels.   I just know two kids and two grandkids are going to lose their mother and grandmother far before her time.   (that being me of course).

Doreen,

I feel terrible about your condition and sympathize with your concerns for yourself and your family.  I was in no way trying to take away from your situation.  There is unfortunately nothing that i can do to aleviate that, although i wish i could.

When you said that the demolished your old PMQ  and stated " would be interesting to know why", IMHO, your were implying that it somehow had to do with agent orange.  Maybe i am wrong.  But that is the kind of attitude that leads to more trouble for everyone.  Alot of PMQs were demolished, not only in gagetown but on almost every base in the CF.  Not everything has to be related to agent orange.  Alot of people involved in this whole thing have jumped to conclusions, fed by both fear and anger, and this will help no one.

 

[Mack]

Peanut butter tech,

Besides your personal, insensitive, factless view of the situation, whats been your contribution to the situation? Is it to just toe the line and try to belch out to us the gossip circulated by the local coffee club?

If you were affected then maybe you'd understand the fear; and again, if you were affected then maybe you'd understand that being lied to and misled since 1981 why a person would be angry.

Challenge me with some facts Aesop, and leave your unfounded feelings where they belong.

Let a very ill Lady spill her guts without you feeling like you have to have the last word.

Suck back and reload airman. There has been plenty of evidence provided here that should substantiate a little fear and anger. Do some reading before you tell folks they are just paranoid and fearfull. The anger is easy to understand as long as folks like you take the podium.

 

[aesop081]

If you were affected then maybe you'd understand the fear; and again, if you were affected then maybe you'd understand that being lied to and misled since 1981 why a person would be angry.

My father served in the CF from 1964 onwards.  Both of us have roamed the training areas of CFB Gagetown for most of our adult lives.  I may not be sick but that may just be a matter of time.  My father however has suffered recuring bouts with cancer.  He has been following the case of AO with interest but he recognises that there are other causes for his illness and therefore he will wait for concrete evidence before passing judgement.  I have been in gagetown for training many times, was posted there for 3 years.  My kids spent part of their young lives there.  I may not be affected to the same extent as you, nowhere near actualy, but i am not without cause for concern.  So i refuse your argument that i am nt affected.

Yes there is mounting evidence of what you and others claim, i am not disputing that.  I agree with you that the goverment has done much to instill a climate of fear and anger.  I am not toeing the party line, if i were maybe my career might have gone further.

 

[Mack]

Aesop,

I feel terrible for jumping on you like that. Please accept my apology.