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The Americanism of our Indiv Trg Methodology

Gents, I throw this one out for discussion as I have noticed a disturbing trend of our Army to look southward in the evolution of our individual trg.   Has anyone else noted this trend which I believe is generated only by the US involvement in Iraq and the continued lessons learned.  


First, I think we would be criminally negligent as professionals if we did not pay the close attention we have been to both US Army and Marine experiences in OEF/OIF. Their lessons learned, at great human cost, will save us lives in the next operation we are in.

Second, while I also agree that we must not replace our former "Brit-groupie-ism" with equally unthinking "US-groupie-ism" that automatically accepts everything the object of worship does as outstanding, we also need to look closely and realize that the US Army is changing for the better, and quickly. IMHO, very soon we will begin to see the results of all of these lessons learned, in both the Active Army and the ARNG. (The USMC were IMHO "already there" to a much greater extent than the Army was when OEF/OIF got going). I think we will have some of our smug Canadian assumptions knocked about quite badly.

Finally, I think that some of your assumptions about the calibre and quality of the US Army are already out of date, as are some your impressions about their training methodology. And, as has been pointed out by others, the massive reservoir of current combat experience that these (much) younger US NCOs and officers have IMHO more than offsets their relative youth. They are young: they are not inexperienced: that is a crucial difference.

We need to be conscious of our heritage, of who we are, and how we got to be there. We do   not need to mimic any other Army, be it UK, US, French, or whatever. What we do need to do is learn and adapt from those who are out there "doing the business".

Cheers.

 
PBI that was extremely well put. Too many people in the military today have the attitude that the CF is the best trained army in the world. Sadly that is not true for the most part. We sorely lack the experience that other armies are getting. I firmly believe the blame lies with the Canadian public and our elected "leaders" who are absolutely terrified about sending the troops out to fight WARS. I remember in Afghanistan when our troops were killed by accident by an American pilot that there was a huge call for us to be withdrawn immediately.
Sorry about that, got a little off topic. Just to reiterate lessons can and should be learned from all sources, be they American, British, Australian or whatever. Those who deplore anything American are really just ignorant no-minds!
 
well troops i gotta say after surfin this site for a couple of years this is one of the better discusions iv'e seen.it would be nice if the bean counters and higher ups would pay attention to this talk but that's just wishfull thinkin(haha).2Cdo,pbi your post's hit the nail on the head for me.so no need to ramble on.. :cdn:
 
PBI - What does IMHO stand for?  :-[
2 Cdo - I hope you were not referring to me as "Those who deplore anything American".

I thought I was fairly up to date with the American trg system having spent 6 months in Fort Knox a little over a year ago however I recognise that the US Army does react quickly to the demands of the field force something which we do not do here very well.  In fact I'd be curious if anyone has been involved with a validation of a combat arms course recently.  I still stand by my belief in the differences in the quality of individual that the Canadian Army tends to get.

I am cautious about adopting the lessons learned from any Army, even if it is the most recent combat experience going.  I think the differences in individual trg and even weapon systems is so great between our army and others that the majority of the lessons learned become mute. Example - The CLS website has a link to a CFLO report indicating that the Americans are adopting a new Vehicle life saving kit for all their vehicles due to lessons learned in Iraq.  The same link indicates that Canada should do the same. On inspection of some of the kit (Catheters, etc)   it is quick to see that it is beyond the capabilities of the basic first aid soldier that Canada has.  So do we adjust that level of trg and if so where do we do this? BMQ, SQ (whoops that will be gone soon), DP1?  We must conduct a close inspection of what we ask the individual trg system to do.  While some lessons learned would be nice to have, we can only teach so much in individual trg and the slack will have to be incorporated into collective trg.

The lessons learned in Iraq are good for the type of army that the US has now.  Will these lessons be applicable in the future operations that the Canadian Army will be operating in?  Is OIF the type of operation that the CLS has outlined that we will be involved in the future?  Should we focus on Afghani lessons learned more so than others.  There are lots of armies with experience in Iraq - Brits, Poles etc are any of these armies closer to our nature?

How do we know that our individual trg is lacking and requires changing?

I had a better written reply before but unfortunately buttonology issues have caused that one to be deleted.
 
we look to America for their lessons learned, just as we do with the UK, Oz, and Israel. We then take what works for us, and disregard what doesn't. Just as we always have. Nuthin' wrong with that. We look south so often, because we (despite our gov't) have a strong connection with them. They are our allies, and our friends. I have known excellent American soldiers, and I have known some that I wouldn't trust with a rubber rifle. Just as I have Canadian.

Anyone who has a problem with our learning from America, simply because it's America, should probably ask themselves why. I prefer to learn form others' mistakes, rather than make my own and suffer thereby.
 
Plattypuss, I wasn't even thinking about you ;D. The people I am referring to know who they are, and in all likelyhood are probably the type of people who don't realize that the main point of a military is to train for WAR. These are also the same people who have probably never worked with any other nations forces and thus really have nothing valid to add to the discussion.
Thanks for the compliment Bubba, good to see someone who agrees with me every now and then! :o
 
I think that our individual training system is pretty top notch (although it could always be improved), due again to the quality of our instructors.  I think that we could, however, hoist some things aboard from the US Army and USMC regarding collective training.  Finally, we must study and absorb the combat lessons that they are "learning" the hard way.  It isn't that I think that we are amateurs, its just that the US has a wealth of recent combat experience that we must take advantage of. 

At a recent mess dinner I sat across the table from a US Army colleague who had spent a year in Iraq.  I certainly tried to pull lessons from him (between rounds).  If only I'd been taking notes instead of ordering more wine...

Cheers,

2B
 
PBI - What does IMHO stand for?

"In My Humble Opinion"

I still stand by my belief in the differences in the quality of individual that the Canadian Army tends to get.

I guess it depends on what you have seen, because I also stand by my assertion.

On inspection of some of the kit (Catheters, etc)    it is quick to see that it is beyond the capabilities of the basic first aid soldier that Canada has.   So do we adjust that level of trg and if so where do we do this? BMQ, SQ (whoops that will be gone soon), DP1?   We must conduct a close inspection of what we ask the individual trg system to do.   While some lessons learned would be nice to have, we can only teach so much in individual trg and the slack will have to be incorporated into collective trg.

You may recall that about ten years ago, as the op tempo started to go up and we began to go on more missions where people were shooting, getting shot at, and becoming casualties, that the Cbt A realized that our largely "work place"-oriented civvy-type first aid training, and our hopeless little first aid kits, were both inadequate. Recommendations were made to start combat first aid training, and to begin training a few "combat lifesavers" in each section. I know this because our battalion (1 PPCLI) made these same recommendations as a result of our experiences on Op HARMONY Roto 04. The training was intended to be inserted into TMST, but we recognized that it needed to be a part of the elementary training of all soldiers. It was achievable, and I know that on later missions soldiers were trained to start IVs and administer morphine. During my recent tour in Afghanistan, when I interviewed tactical leaders in the US Inf bns in TF THUNDER (USMC, USARNG and Active Army) I got a resounding reinforcement of this training need. One of the battalions stated they trained several soldiers in each platoon to EMT level. This is not a new lesson learned but it is a vital one and one that we can achieve.

The lessons learned in Iraq are good for the type of army that the US has now.   Will these lessons be applicable in the future operations that the Canadian Army will be operating in?   Is OIF the type of operation that the CLS has outlined that we will be involved in the future?   Should we focus on Afghani lessons learned more so than others.   There are lots of armies with experience in Iraq - Brits, Poles etc are any of these armies closer to our nature?

We don't confine ourselves to looking at OIF: we study OEF as well. But, even if we did confine ourselves to OIF, the US forces there are engaged in such a wide range of operations that there is much to be learned. Unless we are going to restrict ourselves solely to benign, low-risk Ch VI type ops in future (certainly not the message the CDS or CLS are passing on...) then perhaps we could dismiss the US LL by saying they are an Army "unlike ourselves". I do not think this will be the case, and I definitely do not believe that these differences, whatever you perceive them to be, are so outstanding that they negate the value of US experience. I suspect you may have a bit of a stereotyped view of the US Army: I believe that at the tactical level they have become far more adaptive, flexible and much better users of initiative than we have traditionally been willing to give them credit for.

How do we know that our individual trg is lacking and requires changing?

By constantly paying attention to the LL of armies actually engaged in all types of operations, then adopting those LLs that we think are valid. If our trg doesn't already impart those things that we feel we need, then it's obviously inadequate. I guarantee you that while our indiv trg has traditionally been one of our strengths, we do not have a corner on good IT techniques nor training support systems. The US already led us in some areas, and is learning quickly in others.

Cheers.







 
Thanks PBI, you have generated some very good points.  The points you have made with respect to First aid trg are very true and it would seem to be a common-sense requirement to train our soldiers to a higher level.  I wonder with the mentality of today if the units would be able to recieve the funding for this type of training or would it be like the pioneers and assault troops and considered the responsability of another branch to embed their pers within the platoon or patrol.

Cheers
 
Streamline the recruiting process,  uh... yeah, I'm for that ;D

I had it explained to me once (I probably said this elsewhere prior) that the problem was that I was trained by professional soldiers to be a professional soldier. The thing is, that makes me obsolete as the CF now wants properly qualified military personnel (whatever that means).

I responded that I preferred to believe that if this was the case, then this wasn't the CFs desire, but the powers behind DND; and to me there is a difference.

It's amazing what you can tell yourself to keep a smile on your face.

Just two guys talking...
 
I had it explained to me once (I probably said this elsewhere prior) that the problem was that I was trained by professional soldiers to be a professional soldier. The thing is, that makes me obsolete as the CF now wants properly qualified military personnel (whatever that means).

What? Who said this? This isn't the position of the Canadian Army, that's for sure. Read some of the Army stuff that's out on the profession of arms, Army ethos, Training Canada's Army, etc. and you'll see that somebody is talking crap.

Cheers
 
I never said that it was the official position of the CF.

I should have been clearer, I was having a conversation (aka. I was ranting to a buddy) who is in the navy and he took that position. He felt that was indicative of the prevailing culture within the military bureacracy at this time; but this isn't supposed to be taken as an official position by the CF.

As I said, just two guys talking.

Having said that, an officer at CFRC once came the closest; she said that we have enough of your kind already. I asked her to explain that and she moved on. I decided to let it go and left. Bearing in mind, we were having strong words at the time. She didn't care for my persistence or tone, I didn't care for her condescention. We got along great >:D .

I make friends wherever I go ;D
 
I never said that it was the official position of the CF.


OK-I understand that, and I was not really suggesting that you thought that yourself. I was going after whoever said it.

He felt that was indicative of the prevailing culture within the military bureacracy at this time; but this isn't supposed to be taken as an official position by the CF.

I understand, but I think we need to distinguish very carefully between the way the Army (the CLS and below...) thinks and acts about something, and the outlook at the DND/NDHQ level, especially in "purple" organizations like CFRG that have no operational master: they can and often are very different.

Having said that, an officer at CFRC once came the closest; she said that we have enough of your kind already

Either you REALLY pissed her off, or she is not suited to the job. We have discussed in other threads some of the problems with how we man the Recruiting system.


Cheers


 
PBL - I concur with what you said. As for that one incident with that particular officer; it was a bit of both. I was frustrated and she didn't want to deal with me. There was a bit of a conflict of personalities, that happens. Y'let it go and move on.

Bottom line and of relevance to this thread, as has been said in many other areas of this site, the recruiting process needs to be streamlined. If that means learning from the Marines to reduce the time from when a person walks in the door to when they walk into the shacks, then by all means. This nonsense about dedication to enrolment by the individual v. the competence or workload of the staff is insulting to all aforementioned. The gov't wants to increase enrolment and has implemented measures to do so, then get the staff into the CFRC and related departments to ensure that the processing of the applicants file happens in a reasonable time frame. Also, keep it under one roof. Get the crim checks passed along to the local police (its what they do) and get medicals processed in house by the proper staff. This shouldn't be so difficult.

Take a look at the Yanks and how they do it. Hell, look at the Legion.

Cheers...
 
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