The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Timberwolfe]

This is the latest US army purchase the KAC M110 it is an AR type .308 sniper platform to replace the m24 It's good out to 1000M. The comment about the C-8 is way off the C-8 is a major POS the US call it the M4 and have discontinued purchasing this weapon because of all the shortfalls during operations. The main problem is the gas tube. HK has solved all the problems with the C-8 top receiver and calls it HK-416 But Canada has no intention of purchasing the HK modified receivers at this time but are well aware of the problems with the C-8.

 

[1feral1]

Hey Timber, what are you talking about, the M4 or variants of such have been around for 40 years, back in the days it was called a CAR-15.

Why the hate for it. What do you think is it's weakness?

I have used the M4 on many occasions in all climates, and I have been involved it extensive rebuilds (100s upon 100s of wpns and I mean rebuilds from a stripped lower on up) of the system here in Australia, and been familiar with the system since 1978. I have heaps of confidence in it, and I would carry it anywhere in the world without complaint.

What are your credentials to give you the right to criticise it? Are you fitter/Armt qualified or what? I would not go bagging the weapon because of a few magazine articles or a few off the wall comments by people who have used it, and not cared for it properly.

We (Australia) have used the M16 FOW since 1965, carried it in Viet Nam, Malaya, through out the twisted climatic conditions of Australia, and now are using the system with confidence in Iraq and Afghanistan. Aside form the usual hick-ups, the carbine is well recieved by all who carry it.

Hope to hear from you with some backbone info you have to back up your claim. lets see a list of why you think it is a POS, after all its just a short barreled M16, isn't it.

Warm regards,

Wes

EDITed for spelling, etc

 

[KevinB]

The C8 is not a POS - the Hk416 is not issue - they are limited item in use in the USASOC - CAG/Delta whatever we want to call them today.

The the M4A1 and M4 are still being issued as well - I happen to have a brand new M4A1.

  please STFU

 

[HItorMiss]

I had a C8 with EOTECH site from time to time on Roto O, I throughly enjoyed using that weapon, never had a single issue with it or it's reliability under "field" conditions, where are you getting that it is a POS???

I assume your using that stupid USMC thing where some soldier told his dad what he thought of all the weapons, I'm pretty sure that little gem of an Email had been debunked, or at the least many of it's conclusion have be refuted by BTDT on this site.

 

[Timberwolfe]

First of  all I am not talking about taking the M4/C8 out to the range with 60 rnds for  a 300m PWT. I am talking about the inherent problems that the weapon has under extreme firing conditions. During over beach OP’s ect. When the weapon is being used for sustained suppressive automatic fire. The M4/C8 was never designed to be a carbine. The main problem is with the gas tube system. (I will explain bare with me) when a round is fired the case expands under pressure and the bullet travels down the barrel. Once the bullet has left the barrel the case pressure is relieved and the case retracts, but because of the high rate of fire and the short gas tube the bolt actually starts traveling rearward before the case has retracted from the pressure. This is causing the bolt to break off the back of the casing and creat hard extractions and double feeds. These problems are occurring after 5/6+ mags of sustained automatic fire. Not so much a problem seen by the average soldier but a big one for the boys in the Delta Force, JTF, Seals ect. Second  the gas tube introduces carbon and hot gasses into the internals of the receiver. This causes carbon fouling and extreme heat build up. I personally experienced cook offs midway through my sixth 29rnd mag. And the weapon was far to hot to handle with out heavy gloves. When the aluminium receiver expands faster than the steel barrel it causes loss of accuracy. Then there is the magazine it is terrible at keeping dirt out. A big problem in sandy situations. Also the forward quadra rail system won’t hold zero after the weapon has experienced 200 rnds or so of automatic fire. The US army sent Heckler & Koch 10 M4’s and got them to tweak the bugs out as HK did for the Brits SA80. They changed the gas tube for a short stroke gas piston system (similar to the M14 system) which got rid of the carbon fouling and heat problem, designed a steel dirt tight magazine, reduced the rate of fire (which also made it easier to shoot on full auto) redesigned the Buffer and Spring assembly, and changed the barrel for a cold hammer forged type. The US Delta Force  has already been swapping out their M4 top receivers for the new modified HK416 receiver. Our Dwyer Hill boys will be following suit shortly. The US has a long term plan of replacing all there top receivers long & short as needed. These problems were easily rectified by HK but Diemaco (Colt Canada) was well aware of these troubles.

 

[MG34]

Phew!! Nice cut and paste there I read that bullshyte article as well. The piston uppers have shown no significant improvement over the direct inpingement system of the M16 series (to include Canadian,etc variants). As far as dumping hundred of rounds through a rifle,well get what any rifle/carbine will jam up and suffer a loss of performance due to the build up of carbon,and other crap. That is why we have LMGs/GPMGs to provide sustained fire. I see you are relying on second hand info and utter crap as your basis of reference,I suggest once again that you engage brain before posting.

 

[Scott]

From the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines

You will properly attribute any quotes to the appropriate author or speaker.

You will not post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this site.

There are lots of discussions which take place on this forum in which either none or all of us are "experts" in some way (politics, rifles, etc).  It's great that we can all discuss the daily news and have civil debate on contentious matters, however these boards are no different than the real world, and if you provide information to back up your claim, you better be willing to give us some proof.  If you base your opinions off of hearsay and rumor, be prepared to be called to task when you use up bandwidth on this board to tell us about it.

Just in case some members need to refresh their memories.

 

[KevinB]

Mine...



Needless to say I think I have a bit more end user experience that you.  If you are so concerned - may a switch to the Mk262 Mod1 77gr ammuntion -- it is more accurate and has better terminal effects in people that M855/C77 does.

 

[TCBF]

The 855 is Lake City, who is BLH?

;D

 

[KevinB]

BlackHills

They make the 77gr Mk262 Mod1 for the military.

Not only is is match accurate - but it is primo as a rodent killer 

 

[TCBF]

Yeah, I think they are flogging their 'cosmetic' seconds in white boxes in every gas station in the Dakotas, by the look of it:

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=272661

If I pick up any more Winchester LE 'Ranger' .223 brass at Spruce Grove, I'm going to have to start yard-saleing it.

Tom

 

[KevinB]

Its great stuff -- I had a line on 5k back in Fla. -- but I waited too long  :'(

If I could think of a way to smuggle it back to CONUS - I'd be in heaven
- yeah Blake I'd brign you some too... ;D

 

[redleafjumper]

Blackhills makes good ammo; I picked up a batch a few years ago and it ran just fine.  Though, in looking at TCBF's picture, I might have to take a trip south to gas up!  ;D

 

[TCBF]

"TCBF thanks a lot for the info....I was looking thru the B-GL last night at work and it didn't have exactly what I am looking for."

- The response that is bound to elicit from other NCO's is:  "Uh-oh, what part did you BREAK or LOSE?"

;D

The situation: Tank Commanders Course 8502, CTC, NB.  I am coming off sentry at 0300.  It is early Dec in Gagetown, 2 feet (+) of snow, and cold.  Mother nature calls.  "Dang" I say, and walk around to the back of the Leo to pull the tail-tape out of the Tk/Inf telephone box.  I pull on the latch - the box does not open.

I pull harder - two hands:  no go.

This is serious: it is keeping me from doing my business, and sleep. 

I slip one of the elongated holes of the top bar of the SMG butt over the tel box handle, and use the SMG as a pry bar - it works.  I grab the tail-tape and snowshoe deeper into the harbour.

Come daylight, before I mount, I try to fold the stock of the SMG (19" folded - 27" extended, remember?). 

I can't.  It is bent.  A lot.  An AWFUL LOT.

I tie it up with 80 lb test cord from inside my helmet,  and see the gun plumber at the next rolling replen.  "I have a problem" I say.

"What?" he asks.  I show him.

"Did you get that caught in the turret?" (meaning while traversing - an automatic charge) he asks.

"No" I said, "Even better..." I explained the sit.  "Keep it hid until maintenance afternoon, and I will put on a new butt then" he said.

And I did.

And he did.

 

[geo]

LOL, LOL.... having been in CTC at that time of year... though not on Armd course - can appreceate that Priceless - am certain that at 3AM you were certain the SMG was still in perfect working condition.

 

[redleafjumper]

What surprises me is that a Leopard doesn't have a pry bar...  ;D
Classic improvisation combined with a very nice save!

 

[Franko]

What surprises me is that a Leopard doesn't have a pry bar...  ;D
Classic improvisation combined with a very nice save!

It does...not the type required though. Forget about the spade as well...late at night, metal on metal....

Spray spray spray    ;D

Regards

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I would guess by word of mouth/opinion considering that this guy is a CADET.

From http://forums.army.ca/forums/members/12648

Rank:  Seargent
Unit:  2659 Artillery
MOC: 
Mil Exp:  4 yrs

 

[KevinB]

Sigh...

The C8CT will outshoot and outrange a stock C7A1 - using Mk262 Mod1 77gr ammuntion.

IMHO what the CF should be using in both Handgun (Glock19) and Rifle 16" Midlength

 

[Kal]

Hey Kevin,  what's the length of that forend?  Did you cut it?

Just curious...