The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)
A lot of the tumbling stuff came from the lighter round tended to deflect when firing in jungle environment. Everybody was used to the 7.62 - M-14 round blasting through to the target, and the M-16 didn't always. When we were introduced to the rifle and rounds, we were told, correctly or incorrectly - I don't know, that the round was designed to be ever so heavier on one side so that when it hit a target it tumbled. All we could ever see, was it went and sometimes out.
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My first comments since I've been on the site so I haven't read way back on the thread but a ''tumbling round'' ???
I am a long way off from knowing it all, but I've been a reg force weapons tech for near seventeen years and the only term I've heard for tumbling in ballistics theory is what happens to a projectile after it comes into contact with an object along its intended flight path or no longer has the momentum to continue on its intended trajectory, lets say after missing its intended target for example, where the physical factors of the projectile along with environmental conditions during flight come into play.
A ''normal'' C7 wouldn't be a very good choice for any sniper. There is a C7CT which is a sniper support rifle, although a side by side only the reciever assemblies would indicate that they are from the same family of small arms.
I am a long way off from knowing it all, but I've been a reg force weapons tech for near seventeen years and the only term I've heard for tumbling in ballistics theory is what happens to a projectile after it comes into contact with an object along its intended flight path or no longer has the momentum to continue on its intended trajectory, lets say after missing its intended target for example, where the physical factors of the projectile along with environmental conditions during flight come into play.
A ''normal'' C7 wouldn't be a very good choice for any sniper. There is a C7CT which is a sniper support rifle, although a side by side only the reciever assemblies would indicate that they are from the same family of small arms.
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okay everyone, I think the dog-piling can stop. I'm fairly sure that the dude meant 'tumbling inside the body'. Which, while not technically correct terminology, is how it used to be described. Let's give the guy a break, shall we?
KevinB
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Dude - MG34 and I have both tried on seperate occasions -- IF you swap scopes (the Schmitt and Bender off the CT on an A1 or A2 - you can do aboout as well with the non CT gun out to what ever range you want to shoot at.) IF you pop a KAC trigger into the C7 (like the KAC one on the CT 
) you can get a lighter gun that shoots better.
We put a freefloat tube on a C7A1 and managed to get a 2lb lighter gun that outshot the CT -- the only advantage the CT has is due to the way CanTAC had to alter the Aze Utra Suppressor - it will not mate properly with any guns other than the C7CT or the C8SFW)
The C7CT barrel profile is designed for a MG - not a sniper rifle -- and the tube on it is a boat anchor.
) you can get a lighter gun that shoots better.We put a freefloat tube on a C7A1 and managed to get a 2lb lighter gun that outshot the CT -- the only advantage the CT has is due to the way CanTAC had to alter the Aze Utra Suppressor - it will not mate properly with any guns other than the C7CT or the C8SFW)
The C7CT barrel profile is designed for a MG - not a sniper rifle -- and the tube on it is a boat anchor.
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Then we're no longer talking about a ''rack'' C7 as was mentioned earlier!!Infidel-6 said:Dude - MG34 and I have both tried on seperate occasions -- IF you swap scopes (the Schmitt and Bender off the CT on an A1 or A2 - you can do aboout as well with the non CT gun out to what ever range you want to shoot at.) IF you pop a KAC trigger into the C7 (like the KAC one on the CT
We put a freefloat tube on a C7A1 and managed to get a 2lb lighter gun that outshot the CT -- the only advantage the CT has is due to the way CanTAC had to alter the Aze Utra Suppressor - it will not mate properly with any guns other than the C7CT or the C8SFW)
The C7CT barrel profile is designed for a MG - not a sniper rifle -- and the tube on it is a boat anchor.
KevinB
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True -- but plus 400m is a stretch for the C7CT (at least in an operation parameter). My intial poitn was int eh 100-200 metre envelope that a rack C7A1/A2 can (and has) done just as well - same shooter same day. I put a KAC F/A trigger in a C8SFW and with a TA01NSN ACOG - I had a system that could outshoot either inside 300m...
To take advantage of either a better round cough Blackhills Mk262 Mod1 cough needs to be procured.
If they got rid of thw worthless TRIAD-II riser rail on the C7CT - fluted or decrease the diamter on the barrel, and ditched the adjustable gas block (oh yeah and added backup sights) the C7CT would not be the boat anchor that it is -- the thing weight 5lbs MORE than the equivalent US system (Mk12 Mod1) and the US system is more accurate.
My major bitch at the C7CT is the unneeded weight of the system -- fine for benchrest shooting -- but not for an operational sniper gun
To take advantage of either a better round cough Blackhills Mk262 Mod1 cough needs to be procured.
If they got rid of thw worthless TRIAD-II riser rail on the C7CT - fluted or decrease the diamter on the barrel, and ditched the adjustable gas block (oh yeah and added backup sights) the C7CT would not be the boat anchor that it is -- the thing weight 5lbs MORE than the equivalent US system (Mk12 Mod1) and the US system is more accurate.
My major bitch at the C7CT is the unneeded weight of the system -- fine for benchrest shooting -- but not for an operational sniper gun
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does anyone know if thre's an M-16 variant with an integral suppressor, a la the MP5-SD? If so, how much more money (besides 'a lot') would one of those bad boys cost?
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yeah, that was odd. Seems fixed now, though.
Too bad. I kinda like the idea of every C7 being integrally suppressed, right from the factory, although I know the costs would be astronomical. Still, rather than adding to the length of the barrel...
Too bad. I kinda like the idea of every C7 being integrally suppressed, right from the factory, although I know the costs would be astronomical. Still, rather than adding to the length of the barrel...
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paracowboy said:
From what little I know, it would seem that suppressors have a fairly limited life and might be better to have tehm easily replaceable.
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from the little I do, I agree. That's why I suggested the cost would be astronomical. As I understand it, the units that have the SD3 have to send their weapons to H und K to get re-barrelled, which I imagine is not cheap.Colin P said:
I was just curious if there was such an animal, and what it would cost. Figgered if anyone would know, it'd be someone on here, most likely Infidel.
From what little I know - which is a lot littler than most - supressing the noise from sub-sonic projectiles (especially low powered ones) is more cost/weight effective than suppressing full powered service ammunition. I understand the potential benefits of reducing muzzle blast, flash and recoil, but if noise is a by product of military efficiency in a SERVICE cartridge - so be it.
But, I am prepared to be educated.
Tom
But, I am prepared to be educated.
Tom
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
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Current military intended suppressor designs can outlast a barrel.
However integral suppressed weapons are primarily done to ensure that super sonic catridges are reduced in pressure via barrel ports to subsonic velocities. This gives a reduced trajectory and a greatly reduced terminal effect.
The H&K MP5's barrels are machine pressed in - so one can do it in Regina at the RCMP depot - or send it to HK -- the Brugger and Thommet can for the MP-5SD series is not especially different - althought the morons in Canadian Border Services have made it extremely difficult for the systems to be brought for in Canada work in since they seem to feel the MP-5 barrel and the integral suppressor are different parts :
Reduction of OAL is best accomplished by a BOTB (back over the barrel) (also called a reflex suppressor) suppressor which telescopes over the barrel a portion of its length (although there are limits to the suppression and other issue with this design).
I will go on tomorrow...
However integral suppressed weapons are primarily done to ensure that super sonic catridges are reduced in pressure via barrel ports to subsonic velocities. This gives a reduced trajectory and a greatly reduced terminal effect.
The H&K MP5's barrels are machine pressed in - so one can do it in Regina at the RCMP depot - or send it to HK -- the Brugger and Thommet can for the MP-5SD series is not especially different - althought the morons in Canadian Border Services have made it extremely difficult for the systems to be brought for in Canada work in since they seem to feel the MP-5 barrel and the integral suppressor are different parts :
Reduction of OAL is best accomplished by a BOTB (back over the barrel) (also called a reflex suppressor) suppressor which telescopes over the barrel a portion of its length (although there are limits to the suppression and other issue with this design).
I will go on tomorrow...
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