The Evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon Thread

[Kat Stevens]

Adrienne Clarkson would have spent more than this on a long weekend at the cottage.  Of all the things to bitch about wasting my tax money on, this is pretty far down the list.

 

[GaelicSoldier]

Huge amount of respect Missile Man, 

WARNING ETHICAL CONTENT!!


I can't really undersand how some people can say things like that about our own people, (mind you I'm not complaining).  How would FastEddy feel if someone in his family got stranded in a war zone?  He'd probably be pissed if the Govt didn't spend a small amount if their budget to bring his family home.

And to paracowboy and Enfield, respect for supporting the ideals of leave no-one behind.

To everyone who might have family and/or friends in Lebanon, you have my best wishes and hope that your family and/or friends make it home safe.

Cheers :cheers:

 

[FastEddy]

Wow, fasteddy, DFAIT and DND should have consulted army forums for the answer to this crisis, you have solved it ion one post!  According to you solution; we should have set up a debit machine at the brow of each cruise ship (if insufficient funds were indicated, the evacuee would be turned away back into Tyre/Beirut); and, 2 - if people visit their families in a war zone, they are simply out of luck.  Though the Beirut airport was bombed out (can't fly out) and all of the roads were destroyed (can't drive anywhere) their only way out was by our charterred boats!  We could have actually made money on this humanitarian crisis!  And there we were, like suckers, spending millions of dollars and placing 150 DND personnel and hundreds of DFAIT pers in harm's way for 14 days in order to evacuate Canadian civillians from a war zone.  What were we thining?  Not only does your plan save all of the fuss and muss of money and danger, we could have actually MADE money on this swan.

Dude, did you actually preview your post before you posted it?  Brutal.

Usually when points or questions are addressed by, 1. Ignoring them 2. Answering with another Question 3.Not considering them, its usually because they want to deflect away from their own argument.

So I'll try to avoid the above, 1. to execute such a evacuation by sea for some 13,000 (originale Est. could have been 50,000) and employing 150 DND personnel and hundreds of  DFAIT Pers., plus what ever additional Government personnel, plus the ships, air transport and in transit support and aid groups. The cost of this, as some posters claim is a mere pittance (compared to the GNB). Well I guess we'll never know. Maybe if we did, there might be a bit more concern about it.

2. No one has suggested or downplayed the efforts and results the DND & DFAIT personnel played in this matter.

3. No one has questioned that Land and Air routes of evacuation were unavailable due to the IDF strategical rendering. So that the sea was the only option.

4. As for your attempt at Humor or Sarcasm (ADM's at the Bow of ships), I might have a bit more faith in our Governments ability to execute such a recovery plan other than ADM's.

5. For the Danger or Hot Spots of the World, I personally don't need a Government Warning not to Visit or reside in such area's, even if violence or outbreaks have not occurred yet. No, I would not visit Israel. And as much as I would love to visit the Pyramids, Egypt is out to. Awareness, Caution or Prevention, take your pick.

6. As for the Government consulting me, it was only suggested that the Evacuees be responsible for the costs of their evacuation. And no where was it mentioned that they shouldn't be immediately evacuated. If you think that such a opinion indicates that I had all the solutions, then your scope of comprehension is very limited.

7. For the choice of Countries one might visit, Switzerland in particular, I would whole hearted agree, it would be by all means.(this is not only sarcastic, but true).

As for reading and editing ones post before submitting, I fully agree, a lot of people should try it.

 

[paracowboy]

Eddy,

so people shouldn't visit Israel, then either? No more pilgrimages by the devout of 3 different (albeit related) Faiths?

We could take this further, into the even more absurd, by stating that since the US has declared a War on Terror, and have suffered attacks on their home soil, that no Canadian should visit America. In fact, since we are involved in the same war, where does that leave Canadians who remain inside our own borders?

Ridiculous? A bit. But no more so than stating that visitors to Lebanon lose their rights to be rescued by their home nation. I've served alongside a number of former Lebanese citizens who go home to visit at every opportunity. Are they, then, not allowed to do so? Should we turn our backs on them for having been born elsewhere? Do their sacrifices for Canada no longer matter?

 

[GAP]

The evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon, set a precedent. Is it a good or a bad precedent? I don't know.

What I think needs to be done, is for the government to clearly define where they will intercede and where they will not. Up until now it has been a one-off thing each and every time, and it is getting more frequent as people do more travelling and are increasingly demanding that when they get themselves in a fix, the government should help them.

On the world stage, in the case of Lebanon, Canada did the right thing.  It could do no less that the other countries were doing, and when all is said and done, probably should have and would have in any case, no matter the political party in  power.

 

[tomahawk6]

In a crisis a government has the responsibility of evacuating its citizens. It is a humanitarian question more than anything else. The US State Dept. warned US citizens from traveling to certain countries. If they go ahead and travel anyway it should be at their own risk, but in the end politics gets involved and the government has to step in to save its citizens from their own stupidity.

 

[FastEddy]

Eddy,

so people shouldn't visit Israel, then either? No more pilgrimages by the devout of 3 different (albeit related) Faiths?

We could take this further, into the even more absurd, by stating that since the US has declared a War on Terror, and have suffered attacks on their home soil, that no Canadian should visit America. In fact, since we are involved in the same war, where does that leave Canadians who remain inside our own borders?

Ridiculous? A bit. But no more so than stating that visitors to Lebanon lose their rights to be rescued by their home nation. I've served alongside a number of former Lebanese citizens who go home to visit at every opportunity. Are they, then, not allowed to do so? Should we turn our backs on them for having been born elsewhere? Do their sacrifices for Canada no longer matter?

Yes absurd is definitely the case when you are insisting that I am against the extraction of Canadian Citizens from a War Zones.

Yes if I did not want to risk a very good chance of being killed by a suicide bomber, I would not visit Israel, if you want to be my guest. And point of fact, there's a lot less chance of that if visiting the U.S.A.. So I'll just play the odds in this case.

Again no one has suggested that we turn our backs on them. It appears some people (including you) seem to argue and boo-hoo for just the sake of arguing.

 

[paracowboy]

Again no one has suggested that we turn our backs on them.

maybe I'm mis-reading your posts, then, but that is what I'm gathering from your posts.

It appears some people (including you) seem to argue and boo-hoo for just the sake of arguing.

As I stated above, I gathered from your posts that you don't think we should rescue our citizens from nations they're visiting if that nation is dangerous. I disagree with that, and I'm trying to put some perspective in. If that's not what you're saying, then we've both wasted bandwidth and time. But, it appears that I'm not the only one to gather that from your posts, so perhaps the fault lies in your posts not being clear enough?

 

[Missile Man]

Precisely.  Finally this thread is put in context.  Fasteddy, as much as it pains you, you cannot put a price on human life.  Even if that human life "shouldn't have" visited relatives in a combat zone or "should have" found their own way out.  As soon as we learned there were civillians stuck in Lebanon with no way out, we all volunteered to go.  My first questtions were not, "why are they over there?", or, "why don't they find their own way out".  In fact, I asked no questions.  The 150 of us were on a plane in 24 hours, not knowing 1 - how long we would be there, 2 - what exactly we would be doing over there, or 3 - how dangerous it was over there.  Our first instinct was not a military instinct, rather it was a human instinct - "people need our help, and we are trained and ready to assist, what time does the flight leave?".

If you ever end up stranded in a combat zone, hopefully your rescuers will react with human intuition and hop on the first flight over there.  Your threads would likely read a lot differently.

 

[Good2Golf]

This op ran the gamut from helping people who were truly in need through no fault of their own and were incredibly thankful afterwards, to middle of the road folks who figured, heck, dust off the passport, Canada's laying on boats to get out of this rapidly worsening situation to the full-fledged opportunists who then have the nerve to wank on about how they didn't get a turn-down on the cruise through the Aegean Sea!

Put this into perspective...none of the CEPs even came remotely close IMO, to that a$$hat, James Loney, who knowingly put himself in harms way and who I'm sure, notwithstanding what he and his a$$hat compatriots said, expected someone to do something.  Just who the heck he thought was going to help him other than CF and coalition force personnel I have no reasonable idea.  Even his clownship was entitled to a$$-saving by Canada.

My biggest beef were the people that complained bitterly about the goat show of an extraction.  Given how I've seen things run in the military and in government life, I figure concrete action inside of a week was not at all bad.  Thankless people need to shake their heads.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Petard]

Wasn't it "Starship Troopers" that differentiated between "Civilians" and "Citizens"?  I can't remember, but what was the difference?  I think that "Civilians" referred to all inhabitants of earth, whereas "Citizens" where those civilians who have earned the title "Citizen", and all of the inherent privileges of being a citizen, through service to the state.

I think Robert Heinlein identified Citizens as veterans, those who served 2 years or more, and who upon release were the only ones allowed to vote (although later he would say in interviews he meant anyone volunteering for federal service that's not quite how it came out in the book, I could be wrong here). Civilians got the same privileges but couldn't vote.
Heinlein got a lot of flack over that but many missed the point, which in a round about way I think a lot people are trying to get at here. In the novel it is suggested democracies fail because the majority of people enjoy their privileges but do not repsect their obligations to the society providing them, so the franchise should only be given to those who truly respect it, retired soldiers. Now how well would that idea fly today?
Anyways, I digress.
I think the priority was to do something for all legally Canadian citizens caught in Lebanon, and Canada, I believe, did the right thing trying to evacuate as many as we could, and much thanks, and respect, go to the dedication of the personnel, like the missileman, that pulled it off with such professionalism.
Now that that's done I think we need to look at this perceived lack of obligation, and possibly loyalty, of some of these  expatriate Canadians. Fasteddy, before he became somewhat emotional about all this and people started dog-piling him, at first seemed to be agreeing with what most people were saying in this thread, as do I, which if I'm reading this right, is that  people with dual citizenship need to be reminded somehow of their obligations to this Canadian society they've made claim to. I'm not sure how that might be done, although I think a Heinlein type manoeuvre on them, such as obligatory service, might be asking too much, but maybe some kind of fee and legally binding oath to retain that Canadian passport is in order for those who do not reside in Canada.

 

[FastEddy]

maybe I'm mis-reading your posts, then, but that is what I'm gathering from your posts.
As I stated above, I gathered from your posts that you don't think we should rescue our citizens from nations they're visiting if that nation is dangerous. I disagree with that, and I'm trying to put some perspective in. If that's not what you're saying, then we've both wasted bandwidth and time. But, it appears that I'm not the only one to gather that from your posts, so perhaps the fault lies in your posts not being clear enough?

It seems Clarification is only as valid as the individual interpretation. therefore, as I've stated and now again.

1. Yes Citizens are entitled to evacuation if a situation warrants it or demand is made.

2. Yes such evacuations should be conducted, regardless of onus of error, circumstances or default of evacuees.

3. At no time did I wish to indicate or infer by intention or otherwise, anything contrary to the above.

4. My contention was, if such evacuations were deemed to be the result of some default of the evacuees, that they should be burden with the costs of such evacuations.

5. Yes, in my opinion, in this case I personally feel that they should be responsible for cost of their evacuation.

6. Area's, Locations, Countries and such banter seems to have been taken out of context (whether by design or my poor presentation).

I trust that the above  clarifies any possible mis-interpretations to you or any other reader. If it doesn't, then I fully agree with you , we are both wasting Band Space.

 

[George Wallace]

Things must be very stable in Lebanon these days, because there are 7,000 people, who were evacuated by the Canadian Government, who have since returned to Lebanon.  I wonder what we should do if the situation flares up again and these people then want to be 'rescued' again?  Makes on question where their loyalties really lie.

 

[Kirkhill]

Things must be very stable in Lebanon these days, because there are 7,000 people, who were evacuated by the Canadian Government, who have since returned to Lebanon.  I wonder what we should do if the situation flares up again and these people then want to be 'rescued' again?  Makes on question where their loyalties really lie.

Given the threat over there perhaps we should put a limit on the number of evacuations. How about one evacuation per person per month?  It should just about cover the demand.  :

 

[cplcaldwell]

We should put an "Evacuation Coupon" in the back of every passport. You know like the coupons they put in the back of the Ikea catalogue.

Once you use the coupon you pay! >

 

[George Wallace]

We should put an "Evacuation Coupon" in the back of every passport. You know like the coupons they put in the back if the Ikea catalogue.

Once you use the coupon you pay! >

Although a joke, you may have a valid idea.

 

[GAP]

What is wrong with the government, having met it's mandate in protecting and evacuating Canadian citizens, from requesting that those same citizens who return to the area of conflict on a more or less permanent basis, that they reimburse the government for the cost of their original removal? If you call for an ambulance, you are responsible for its' cost (stretching it, I know), but there is a legitimate argument for the government to be reimbursed. These were not tourists, or people who happened to be doing business in that country at the onset of the conflict, they were residents.

my 1 cent...I need the other

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I'm going to get slammed for this ... hard ... but I'm going to say it anyways.  Membership has its privileges. Citizenship entitles one to protection,  if you're a citizen that means you are one of us and we are honour bound to keep you safe.  I know when I paid for my passport (and when they paid for theirs) a good chunk of that money went into a fund that pays for exactly these kinds of operations. So really if people want the money back... they used a service they paid for.  This fund is not nearly depleted - hardly ever used in fact.  I know it is kind of an unpopular view,  but even if they are only technically Canadian, there is a duty on our part to help. 


(Now just to put a spin on things)
We also sent resources to Now Orleans,  I know we evacuated people.  How many of those Canadians have since returned?  Why are we not complaining about how they don't contribute to Canada but feel entitled to our help?  Heck most of the people we helped out weren't even Canadian and never will be :-o

 

[vonGarvin]

If you call for an ambulance, you are responsible for its' cost (stretching it, I know)

FYI: In New Brunswick, the government absorbs the cost of the ambulance.  It costs the patient nothing. 


Good analogy, though.

 

[vonGarvin]

I'm going to get slammed for this ... hard ... but I'm going to say it anyways.  Membership has its privileges. Citizenship entitles one to protection,  if you're a citizen that means you are one of us and we are honour bound to keep you safe.  I know when I paid for my passport (and when they paid for theirs) a good chunk of that money went into a fund that pays for exactly these kinds of operations. So really if people want the money back... they used a service they paid for.  This fund is not nearly depleted - hardly ever used in fact.  I know it is kind of an unpopular view,  but even if they are only technically Canadian, there is a duty on our part to help. 

I actually agree with you.  They are Canadian Citizens, so we took them out of harm's way.  I couldn't give a north bound rat's south end if they go back, go to Botswana or go to Chinatown. 
Firefighters have evacuated people from burning buildings, and when the fire is out, those same people go back in. 


So what?

NOW: if people have a problem with persons using "Canadian Citizenship" for convenience, that is a different topic altogether and has NOTHING to do with the evacuation from Lebanon.