The General Hillier Years. The Merged Superthread

[Kirkhill]

what about my second idea of the govt forming a group of canadian companies largely dedicated to providing the wants and needs of the CF?  What are your thoughts on that one?

735 Winnipeg

It's a good idea.  There is a long, ancient and honourable tradition of just that.  In fact all logistics lines start in the Civilian world.  The closer they get to the battle front the more likely the personnel are to be in uniform.  The only real point of debate, and that is defined by contract, is how close to the battlefield a given entity will operate and can the entity ensure that its employees will fulfill their obligations under the contract.

Many contractors in the past, in many armies, have offered to basically supply logistic support right up to the firing line only to discover that their personnel were less than thrilled to be there.  In defence of the employees many armies have found the same with their uniformed personnel.

What is critical is sorting out the details of the contract and ensuring that everybody can live with, and does live with, those obligations.

 

[735_winnipeg]

dunno, i've always assumed that since they have those big transport planes that they do their own lifting.  but seriously canada should implement a group of companies to help the CF.  think about it, less dependency on other countries and private contractors to lift our troops and equipments, being able to build, upgrade, fix, etc our own equipments and vehicles, more jobs for civilians and military personnels, more missions that Canada can accept without overburdening our troops and equipments.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Have to agree would definetly be worth looking into.  As long as it does not civilianes the CF any more then it is.  We still need the troops.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Don't you guys think there is enough patronage and gov't helping of companies that would have died (or restructured)along time ago

 

[Kirkhill]

There is enough of that CFL. And if that was the only reason to keep a company in business then the company should go out of business.  But companies are just institutions that supply services and things for money.  The CF will always need services and things.  They will always cost money.  Somebody will supply them a some price.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I just worry that a company gets a contract based on political maneuvering (as seen in the past) and that having more companies thrown into the mix is not necessarily a good thing if said company gets its contract because of geographical location.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Could not agree with you more CFL

 

[Kirkhill]

I also agree.  The sole criterion should be "value-for-money".  And here I mean value to the CF for CF dollars.  Not value to the Government or a particular party or a particular individual for CF dollars.

 

[STONEY]

Hey guys i accept the 100 lashes i should have proofread my post more carefully.

I meant to say Lt-Gen Hillier would run up against someone the likes of Bob Fowler, i realise he's not still there.
The point i was trying to make was that he might not always be able to get his way because the 20,000 odd civilians including 120 some odd people of equivalent rank of General & are permanent civil servants that seem to have much more power than uniformed personnel.  As for Bob Fowler himself i don't have any opinion since i don't know the man except by reputation that he ran a tight ship for his political masters at several Government Departments and was not necessarily a friend of the Military itself as are any DM's.

The point of my rambling on about the Australian Military was simply that they seemed to be able to aquire a lot of shiny new kit on a budget less than Canada's. Are we spending our budget wisely ? couldn't we do better. Look at other countries Defence Budgets & what they get for their bucks.

I stir the pot only to stimulate discussion.

 

 

[Kirkhill]

Are we spending our budget wisely ? couldn't we do better. Look at other countries Defence Budgets & what they get for their bucks.

Stoney, I suspect a lot of people here on this site agree with that.  And while I do believe that DND/NDHQ has its problems, as Rusty Old Joint and others keep arguing eloquently I believe the problem is much larger than just DND.

The Gomery enquiry, the Challenger jets, the SeaKing replacement project, the CPF project, the Bristol CF-18 project.................all go to prove that.

The spending decisions have to get past:

Public Works and Government Services - home to Alfonso Gagliano and Chuck Guite amongst others
Various Regional and Aboriginal Affairs Agencies
Treasury Board - or finance
Privy Council Office - the final word from the Civil Service bureaucrats advising the Prime Minister
The Cabinet - the sum total of political considerations
The Prime Ministers Office - the Party-Political office supporting the Prime Minister
The Prime Minister himself.

A WHOLE lot of axes to grind and an awful lot of them Political representing an awful lot of favours and markers.

 

[Slim]

The spending decisions have to get past:

Public Works and Government Services - home to Alfonso Gagliano and Chuck Guite amongst others
Various Regional and Aboriginal Affairs Agencies
Treasury Board - or finance
Privy Council Office - the final word from the Civil Service bureaucrats advising the Prime Minister
The Cabinet - the sum total of political considerations
The Prime Ministers Office - the Party-Political office supporting the Prime Minister
The Prime Minister himself.

Good God

Its a wonder we have anything at all!

Slim

 

[Spartan]

Doesn't DND also have to fight foreign affairs influence (it being the superior/more senior deptartment)?

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry Symchyshyn,

You're probably right. I had forgotten about them.  Weapons purchases often seem to say a lot about future alliances.

Anybody else out there need to get their oar in?????????

 

[Wizard of OZ]

"I stir the pot only to stimulate discussion"

As do i my friend you should read the Iran post.

DND faces an up hill battle everytime we want to do something. The CF is to Military for the Military.  Ahh maybe things will change.  It can only get better right?

 

[Meridian]

I know you said "or finance" and Cabinet up there.. but the Finance Minister really deserves his own spot in the "limelight".

Good Ole Paul sure had a hand in canada's military demise...  his political future reste on his budget, and basically Finance Ministers are tested on their ability to get a budget past all the other ministers.

So any DND minister has to convince a) the Finance minister and his cronies to put the money in the budget, b) Cabinet to leave it there  and c) the Prime Minister not to veto it for his own programs.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Just when I thought I couldn't get fed up any more you guys post the Chain of Command for aquistions.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

You know the old saying " IF you wake up and find yourself in a hole, then you should stop digging." 

I wonder if the PM is aware of this. :

 

[Kirkhill]

Dead right Meridian, and sorry CFL....

Cheers.

 

[RCA]

In case it hasn't been posted yet:

MGen Caron (ACLS) promted to LGen -next CLS
BGen Lessard (LFCA) - next ACLS.

 

[George Wallace]

Dept of Foreign Affairs has a lot of say in DND when troops are deployed outside of Canada.

Dept of Finance and Dept of Customs and Excise ? (Revenue) both fall under Treasury Board.

GW