The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Lumber]

I think we are. That being the case, I have to point out that the only time I mentioned suicide was to explicitly exclude it as I'm in in complete agreement that its not germane to the conversation.

Re the bold, I also have to point out that the hypothetical that was initially presented was an aim to fix just that. By definition it would only impact firearms that provide no added functional value to law abiding gun owners, many of which could avoid restriction via retrofit such as the Cross Armory Fixed mag.

I just watched the video on the Cross Armory Fixed Mag. That thing is so simple and ingenious.

They should make the law this: all semi-auto center-fire rifles that are capable of accepting a detachable magazine with a greater than 5 round capacity must be modified to include a non-removable magazine with a 5-round capacity.

There, everyone is happy.

 

[Eaglelord17]

How about we don't bother with any magazine restrictions and let law abiding citizens do as they please?

If you have no defensible argument as to the restrictions you want, then there is no need for them. California bothers with all that fixed magazine crap and all it does it frustrates the law abiding.

Magazine restrictions mean nothing. You already have a firearm, if your intent is to do harm you will do so. Just as if you intend to do harm and have a truck you will do so. Welcome to society where you can't control everyones actions and must accept there are risks involved in being part of it.

 

[IKnowNothing]

How about we don't bother with any magazine restrictions and let law abiding citizens do as they please?

Law abiding citizens have no use for a centre-fire mag that exceeds 5 rounds.

Also, retrofit to a fixed mag isn't a "mag restriction", it changes the functional properties of the firearm

 

[Eaglelord17]

Law abiding citizens have no use for a mag that exceeds 5 rounds.

Based off what? Your judgement? Tell that to me when a criminal is firebombing my house with the intent to kill me (real world example, Ian Thompson).

Law abiding citizens also have no need for personal transportation, owning property, and frankly anything other than food, water, and shelter.

Technically no one has anymore need for a firearm beyond a muzzleloader, as you can hunt anything on the continent with it.

Magazine restrictions do nothing to prevent crime, again you already have the firearm. If your intent is to do harm whether or not the magazine is 5rds, 10rds, or 30rds your going to do about the same amount of damage.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Based off what? Your judgement?

Canadian law. You literally stop/stopped being a law abiding citizen when you exceed/exceeded it.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Canadian law. You literally stop/stopped being a law abiding citizen when you exceed/exceeded it.

Wrong, you can have more than 5rds, my Lee Enfield or Swiss 1889 being examples. Semi-auto rifle magazines are currently limited to 5, but again I argue it is a indefensible position.

It is based off the argument of someone deciding to go on a shooting spree having to reload more times with a 5rd magazine than a greater capacity magazine. I argue if we are at the point of a shooting spree our laws have already failed and it doesn't matter what capacity magazine we have, they are still going to do about equal amounts of damage. One of the deadliest school shootings in the States for example took place with a 6 shot revolver and a pump action shotgun.

Generally people that do those types of events plan some sort of attack, it isn't spur of the moment. They will do what they can to maximize damage, be it driving a vehicle into people, or shooting someone.

The magazine restriction is arbitrary and accomplishes nothing other than frustrating law abiding citizens. How many gangbangers caught in Toronto have pinned magazines?

 

[IKnowNothing]

Wrong, you can have more than 5rds, my Lee Enfield or Swiss 1889 being examples. Semi-auto rifle magazines are currently limited to 5, but again I argue it is a indefensible position.

It is based off the argument of someone deciding to go on a shooting spree having to reload more times with a 5rd magazine than a greater capacity magazine. I argue if we are at the point of a shooting spree our laws have already failed and it doesn't matter what capacity magazine we have, they are still going to do about equal amounts of damage. One of the deadliest school shootings in the States for example took place with a 6 shot revolver and a pump action shotgun.

Semi-auto rifle magazines... are the topic of discussion.

And that's nonsense . Are you actually claiming, that all equal (shooter, planning, calibre, victim/LE response) shooter X with a 5 shot fixed that they have to top feed is "going to do equal amounts of damage" as shooter x (again same person) with a series of 30 round mags?

 

[Lumber]

The magazine restriction is arbitrary and accomplishes nothing other than frustrating law abiding citizens. How many gangbangers caught in Toronto have pinned magazines?

Are there really that many law abiding citizens that are frustrated that their semi auto only has a 5 round magazine?

 

[KevinB]

I think we are. That being the case, I have to point out that the only time I mentioned suicide was to explicitly exclude it as I'm in in complete agreement that its not germane to the conversation.

Re the bold, I also have to point out that the hypothetical that was initially presented was an aim to fix just that. By definition it would only impact firearms that provide no added functional value to law abiding gun owners, many of which could avoid restriction via retrofit such as the Cross Armory Fixed mag.

Who defines functional value?
If I have a belt fed machine gun (I do) who’s to say it doesn’t have functional value as a law abiding shooter?

Many shooting sports use semi automatic firearms with magazines that exceed Canada’s silly provisions.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Semi-auto rifle magazines... are the topic of discussion.

And that's nonsense . Are you actually claiming, that all equal (shooter, planning, calibre, victim/LE response) shooter X with a 5 shot fixed that they have to top feed is "going to do equal amounts of damage" as shooter x (again same person) with a series of 30 round mags?

Yes because again they are going to plan out their attack. The reality of most mass shooting events is the casualties happen fairly fast. People run away quickly unless there is some other factor in play (such as the stadium shooting in the states which was a venue designed to restrict flow of people purposely). Usually the maximum casualties in these situations are around 10, with most being less than that. There are exemptions but they are the exemption not the rule.

If you have any knowledge of firearms, it is very easy to modify and adapt them in different ways. Why could they not just modify it to use a detachable magazine again? The SKS is a great example of a fixed magazine rifle which people have manufactured detachable magazines for it, be it by adapters or specialty magazines. Why should we inconvenience law abiding citizens who are the only ones effected by this, due to your irrational fears?

Are there really that many law abiding citizens that are frustrated that their semi auto only has a 5 round magazine?

Yes, everyone I know hates it and thinks it is stupid because it doesn't do anything. All you need to do is take a look at the efforts many will make to adopt pistol magazines into a rifle to understand how much we attempt to follow the law in spite of it being stupid. I personally hate it the most when using my SKS because those 10rd stripper clips usually drop a extra round in the first time loading the magazine (not 6 in the mag, 5 in the mag and one floating about in the action) and I then have to fish it out before I can use it. Or if there was no pin, it would simply be putting 10rds in and done.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Are there really that many law abiding citizens that are frustrated that their semi auto only has a 5 round magazine?

Also another factor is range time and effort. Personally I mainly shoot bolt actions which I load with stripper clips, I just don't find semi-autos as fun. That being said I would enjoy it less if I had to individually load every round in the magazine every time I went to shoot, especially in the winter.

I like having my stripper clips loaded and ready to go when I head to the range. If I have a magazine fed semi-auto I also like to have those magazines loaded up before hand. With a 5rd capacity I either have to buy a ton of magazines, or be constantly reloading them at the range, which takes and fun out of what I am supposed to be doing there, shooting. It is also a lot more fumbling around at the range line, which where I am isn't busy but some ranges it is and you could be taking a spot away from someone else shooting.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I just watched the video on the Cross Armory Fixed Mag. That thing is so simple and ingenious.

They should make the law this: all semi-auto center-fire rifles that are capable of accepting a detachable magazine with a greater than 5 round capacity must be modified to include a non-removable magazine with a 5-round capacity.

There, everyone is happy.

A 12 GA from a double barrel shotgun will explode someone's head at close range (and be reloadable in a couple of seconds) and a "hunting rifle" commonly used for dropping 800lb to 1200lb moose is going to make a real mess of a human torso. Hunting rifles will outshoot and outhit police carbines.

After semi-autos are banned we're just a homicide away from having to take high-powered sniper rifles out of people's hands. Or devastating close-ranged weapons like the Remington 870. PolySeSouvient already posted (and deleted) a tweet about going after sniper rifles next.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Yes, everyone I know hates it and thinks it is stupid because it doesn't do anything. All you need to do is take a look at the efforts many will make to adopt pistol magazines into a rifle to understand how much we attempt to follow the law in spite of it being stupid. I personally hate it the most when using my SKS because those 10rd stripper clips usually drop a extra round in the first time loading the magazine (not 6 in the mag, 5 in the mag and one floating about in the action) and I then have to fish it out before I can use it. Or if there was no pin, it would simply be putting 10rds in and done.

Respectfully I don't think you and I are going to find common ground on the core of this. I'm just too fuddy. But...

A. I actually agree that imposing the 5 round limit historical/vintage types (SKS/Garand) with reasonably low but not 5 fixed capacity is silly.
B. I wholehearted agree that bolt's are more fun. There's just something... satisfying? in the action and more rewarding at the practice required to get back on target quickly without compromising the 1st shot.

 

[Booter]

A 12 GA from a double barrel shotgun will explode someone's head at close range (and be reloadable in a couple of seconds) and a "hunting rifle" commonly used for dropping 800lb to 1200lb moose is going to make a real mess of a human torso. Hunting rifles will outshoot and outhit police carbines.

After semi-autos are banned we're just a homicide away from having to take high-powered sniper rifles out of people's hands. Or devastating close-ranged weapons like the Remington 870. PolySeSouvient already posted (and deleted) a tweet about going after sniper rifles next.

This is actually really true- the idea that we walk past precision rifles is only temporary. They’ll be next.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have a Martini Enfield carbine Sadly I think its life is over and it will transition into a wall hanger as well. I cant find someone to do a barrel swap on it

What did you want to rebarrel it to?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

More on the "Poly" controversy:

The liberals will soak this for all of its worth. It's not the first time they've, stood in front of the Canadian citizens and blatantly lied through their teeth to the entire population.
No one else even cares about this except firearms owners, polysouvient and lying liberals. Nobody else is tracking this.

It's all another tempest in a teacup created by the PMO spin factory. It has zero bearing on C-21. Anyone still bothered by this already had their minds made up prior to the incident.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Law abiding citizens have no use for a centre-fire mag that exceeds 5 rounds.

Also, retrofit to a fixed mag isn't a "mag restriction", it changes the functional properties of the firearm

May I ask? Are you even a PAL holder with firearms?

How many more arbitrary rules are you willing to be subjected to in order to enjoy your chosen sport?

I am a law abiding citizen and firearm owner. Do not presume to tell me what I need and what I don't need. You sound like trudeau.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Semi-auto rifle magazines... are the topic of discussion.

And that's nonsense . Are you actually claiming, that all equal (shooter, planning, calibre, victim/LE response) shooter X with a 5 shot fixed that they have to top feed is "going to do equal amounts of damage" as shooter x (again same person) with a series of 30 round mags?

The what's more dangerous game is always disingenuous when discussing banning firearms.

You ever see what a one-ounce 12GA slug can do to a head? I have. I have a couple of pump-action shotguns that hold 7 rounds and 15 rounds of 12 GA. That's a lot of lead out of the barrel in seconds. And each slug is 8x the weight of an AR15 bullet.

Do you think those pump-action shotguns should have restrictions on their capacity?

 

[Booter]

I own no guns anymore. I just train what I use at work now. My problem with the mag capacity and “assault” firearm conversation is a Matter of no one “needing”.

That’s not a place I want the government coming at on anything. No One needs “junk food” or a vehicle that uses “too Much fuel” or “so much a year” for salary, it’s not a good place to have any conversation about government involvement in anything from.

Sure it’s just guns- but there is a paternalistic tone to it from people I wouldn’t trust to move a couch without damaging the walls. They love to tell you what you need or when you have enough. Oddly it’s never squared at them,

There isn’t a demonstrated goal for the legislation that actually results in dealing with crime or creating safety,
In the absence of demonstrated utility of legislation it’s an over reach and offends me at my libertarian core.

If someone wants to hurt school children they’ll fashion explosives if they have to. Will they then ban those items as well that can be used?

There is a will to hurt people- you can make it happen. You deal with those
People and You don’t flock shoot your people for the illusion of safety, next it’s something else “unsafe”

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The what's more dangerous game is always disingenuous when discussing banning firearms.

You ever see what a one-ounce 12GA slug can do to a head? I have. I have a couple of pump-action shotguns that hold 7 rounds and 15 rounds of 12 GA. That's a lot of lead out of the barrel in seconds. And each slug is 8x the weight of an AR15 bullet.

Do you think those pump-action shotguns should have restrictions on their capacity?

Jeez Jarn, you know everytime we mention something not on the list, it magically appears there a couple of weeks later. Stop it!

Just for shits and giggles, both of these were shot with Lee Enfield SMLE. 10 round mag and stripper clips. A mad minute is the amount of ammo you can accurately put down range in 60 seconds.

The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48-inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 moa).[1]

Another world record of 38 hits, all within the 24 inch target at 300 yards (2.25 mils/ 7.6 moa), is said to have been set in about 1914 by a Sergt.-Instructor Snoxall.[2] ‘Sergt.-Instructor Snoxall’ was probably Sergeant Frank Snoxell of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment,

You don't need a semi to lay down volumous fire. Speed, skill and training.