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The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

Selfish, petulant, and remarkably disingenuous. Combat ignorance with insight, don't give it fuel.

This board has an active 20 page thread lamenting the failings of and arguing the minutiae of the effectiveness of the various upgrade paths of the C7/ C8 family and how its absolutely critical to get it right so our troops aren't disadvantaged, and I'm willing to bet some of the people posting here stung by OIC's spent a lot of time discussing and optimizing the their rigs for 3 gun comps, but once gun control is the topic lets go full stupid and say a gun is gun so lets dare them to ban em all.

75 shots in 5 minutes is what I've seen reported, and I've seen multiple clips of people running in clear sight and getting to safety as black pants worked the action feverishly to get 1-2 shots off.


Sure they can. But again, we all know that Mauser's and Enfield's are no longer standard issue infantry weapons for good reason. We know that no amount of training is going to get a guy with a lever 45-70 and 12 ga sxs to the winner's circle in an open 3 gun match Rounds may be as lethal, or more so- but the weapons are less effective.


If you think gun control, in any country but particularly the UK, Canada and Australia, is governed by reason and logic I have some ocean front property in Saskatchewan to sell you.

There is no logic, reason, consistency just emotional feelings and desires. Most of the prominent gun control advocates driving it forward are not ignorant, they are clear eyed and upfront in their beliefs. Canada’s certainly are. They don’t acknowledge logic, reason or consistency, they don’t believe firearms have any reason to be in private citizens hands, period. Doesn’t matter what the firearms calibre, rate of fire and action type are.
They have publicly on record stated that criminals are a lesser threat than societies legal gun owners are.

For various reasons across countries politicians have consistently privileged the gun control advocates perspective over logic, reason and consistency. I have little faith that insight will allow much success in western countries.
 
If you think gun control, in any country but particularly the UK, Canada and Australia, is governed by reason and logic I have some ocean front property in Saskatchewan to sell you.

There is no logic, reason, consistency just emotional feelings and desires. Most of the prominent gun control advocates driving it forward are not ignorant, they are clear eyed and upfront in their beliefs. Canada’s certainly are. They don’t acknowledge logic, reason or consistency, they don’t believe firearms have any reason to be in private citizens hands, period. Doesn’t matter what the firearms calibre, rate of fire and action type are.
They have publicly on record stated that criminals are a lesser threat than societies legal gun owners are.

For various reasons across countries politicians have consistently privileged the gun control advocates perspective over logic, reason and consistency. I have little faith that insight will allow much success in western countries.
All great reasons to effectively throw in the towel and hand them the win.
 
but once gun control is the topic lets go full stupid and say a gun is gun so lets dare them to ban em all.
Getting hyper fixated on banning magazine counts and action types misses the bigger picture. The advantages of sinister 30 round mags and dreadful semi-autos are easily offset with experience and confidence. One of these shooters looked very confident with the bolt-action style rifle.

I'm not in favor of banning all firearms. Just that until they (or we) do, people won't realize how much of a wasted effort it is. Or how vulnerable it makes them as citizens.

Sure they can. But again, we all know that Mauser's and Enfield's are no longer standard issue infantry weapons for good reason. We know that no amount of training is going to get a guy with a lever 45-70 and 12 ga sxs to the winner's circle in an open 3 gun match Rounds may be as lethal, or more so- but the weapons are less effective
If buddy with the lever 45-70 lever and 12ga is the only one with ammo and he's experienced with them no one is making it back to their cars.


What's the chances "there were signs" with this duo on their social media or daily life?
 
Getting hyper fixated on banning magazine counts and action types misses the bigger picture. The advantages of sinister 30 round mags and dreadful semi-autos are easily offset with experience and confidence. One of these shooters looked very confident with the bolt-action style rifle.
That's objectively nonsense. I can't believe I'm reading it on a military board.
 
I'm biased because I can shoot a bolt rapidly and accurately. 870s too.
Well then by all means lets cancel the modular assault rifle program in favour of the Savage Axis. All theoretical advantages can be offset with experience and confidence.
 
All great reasons to effectively throw in the towel and hand them the win.

If you’re arguing about magazines or action types you are losing.
Gun control is in effect now driven by political extremism. It needs to be countered as such.

Decisions need to be inclusive in their making.
The rule of law must be adhered to.
Winner take all outcomes need to be avoided.
Education and critical thinking need to emphasized.
Misperceptions need to be countered.

Government and leaders in the western countries need to adhere and insist on the above not be those responsible for doing the exact opposite.
 
Well then by all means lets cancel the modular assault rifle program in favour of the Savage Axis. All theoretical advantages can be offset with experience and confidence.
How about instead of canceling the modular assault rifle program you explain what you find objectively nonsence.
 
This board has an active 20 page thread lamenting the failings of and arguing the minutiae of the effectiveness of the various upgrade paths of the C7/ C8 family and how its absolutely critical to get it right so our troops aren't disadvantaged, and I'm willing to bet some of the people posting here stung by OIC's spent a lot of time discussing and optimizing the their rigs for 3 gun comps, but once gun control is the topic lets go full stupid and say a gun is gun so lets dare them to ban em all.

What upgrades and technology from the CMAR should be prohibited for civilians? The automatic capability has already been for decades.

The CMAR RoF is no higher than the C7 and in practical terms is no more than any semi automatic action type.

Is it the free float barrel that’s objectionable? Maybe the MLOCK attachment points?
Is it the adjustable stock? Maybe short barrels, although those decrease velocity compared to longer ones (generally)?

Those features are shared by numerous firearms of all calibres, actions, lengths and weights.
 
How about instead of canceling the modular assault rifle program you explain what you find objectively nonsence.
That "experience and confidence" can overcome known technical deficiency and basic physics.
Are claiming that you can take a .223 bolt gun with a 5 round capacity and put 50 hits down range (call it an equal mix of 50 / 75/ 100 yard) just as fast as you could with a semi with a 30 round boxes, assuming you had equal "experience and confidence" with each firearm? That a rifle section with said bolt .223's is on equal footing with one of comparable "experience and confidence" with semi-C8's?


@Fabius - the point isn't that any aspect of CMAR should be prohibited for civilians, its the absolute pretzel people will make of themselves to deny the existence of capability differences that they will argue about endlessly in other venues. I disagree with but understand your absolutist philosophical stance that capability is irrelevant to the debate- but that is very different than others erroneously stating that capability difference doesn't exist.
 
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IKnowNotning said:
That "experience and confidence" can overcome known technical deficiency and basic physics.
Are claiming that you can take a .223 bolt gun with a 5 round capacity and put 50 hits down range (call it an equal mix of 50 / 75/ 100 yard) just as fast as you could with a semi with a 30 round boxes, assuming you had equal "experience and confidence" with each firearm?

So basically having a robot doing the shooting while laying down on a shooting range with a bolt action rifle in one and a semi-auto in the other? I'd guess the semi-auto will be faster.

Why is it some mass shootings with AR15s have a dozen fatalities and some have 3 or 4? Every situation is different.

Semi-autos with big magazines are easy to blast away on. Psychologically speaking it can cause people to be less accurate (sometimes with shooters who are terrible shots with a C7 we make them load and fire one round at a time).

Factor in variables such as a shooters experience, confidence level, training (read up why the military shoots man sized targets and not big circles), distance, weapon reliability (I've never had a stove pipe jam in my model 64 Winchester or Remington 700), and the advantages of a smile auto (and there are a bunch) can be reduced.

I can make some guesses why you don't want to hear it but those variables can mitigate some of the advantages of semi automatic military flavored rifles with large magazines.

How long does it take you to reload your shotgun?

I feel like your more okay with military style firearms being banned "because they're dangerous". I've seen how dangerous "hunting" guns can be, it's disingenuous to act otherwise. If you're going to ban military flavored firearms you might as well ban them all.

Also, a rifle section armed with C8s going up against a section at range with Rem 700s is in for a bad day.
 
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So basically having a robot doing the shooting while laying down on a shooting range with a bolt action rifle one one and a semi-auto in the other? I'd guess the semi-auto will be faster.

Why is it some mass shootings with AR15s have a dozen fatalities and some have 3 or 4? Every situation is different.

Semi-autos with big magazines are easy to blast away on. Psychologically speaking it can cause people to be less accurate (sometimes with shooters who are terrible shots with a C7 we make them load and fire one round at a time).

Factor in variables such as a shooters experience, confidence level, training (read up why the military shoots man sized targets and not big circles), distance, weapon reliability (I've never had a stove pipe jam in my model 64 Winchester or Remington 700).
I can make some guesses why you don't want to hear it but those variables can mitigate some of the advantages of semi automatic military flavored rifles with large magazines.

How long does it take you to reload your shotgun?

I feel like your more okay with military style firearms being banned "because they're dangerous". I've seen how dangerous "hunting" guns can be, it's disingenuous to act otherwise.
No offense, but that's a lot of words to say "no".

Of the bold- all are held equal and in the control of the shooter. That's the bottom line, all else equal- a given person is going to be more effective with a better tool in their hands. That someone with decades of practice can be better with a bolt gun than someone that picked up a gun for the first time is with a semi is immaterial.

I'm more okay with it because of the above. There's a real functional difference in capability. Limiting what bad actors have access to can save lives, as it did in Bondi. With the firearms available in canada one can hunt, one can plink, one can CASS (or space CASS) one can shoot precision, skeet, trap. And no one is coming for those guns outside of few nuts that don't have broad support in the population, nuts that I would rather not have the support of petulant/ spiteful comments like the below to fuel their crusade.
.If you're going to ban military flavored firearms you might as well ban them all.
 
I'm more okay with it because of the above. There's a real functional difference in capability. Limiting what bad actors have access to can save lives, as it did in Bondi. With the firearms available in canada one can hunt, one can plink, one can CASS (or space CASS) one can shoot precision, skeet, trap. And no one is coming for those guns outside of few nuts that don't have broad support in the population, nuts that I would rather not have the support of petulant/ spiteful comments like the below to fuel their crusade.

Canada has never made firearms laws or regulations in the last 40 years based off capability. The decisions were made on disinformation.
 
No offense, but that's a lot of words to say "no".


Your position hinges on the assertion that there is a meaningful, outcome relevant “functional difference in capability” between military flavored semi-automatic rifles and other commonly owned long guns. Such that banning one class meaningfully limits harm while leaving the rest intact. That premise is wet powder.


First, the “better tool” argument cuts both ways. Effectiveness is not an inherent property of cosmetic design or operating system. It is a function of shooter intent, competence, time, and target environment. History repeatedly shows that motivated offenders using bolt-action rifles, pump shotguns, or lever guns can and do inflict mass casualties. Rate of fire is not the limiting variable in most real world attacks. Target density and absence of resistance are (watch the unedited Christchurch shooting to see exactly what I mean). A bolt-action rifle in a static environment with unarmed victims is not meaningfully “less dangerous” in outcome than a semi-automatic rifle.


Second, people drawing a regulatory line at “military-appearing” (or military flavored as I like to say) rifles is not a capability-based distinction. It is an aesthetic and political one. Many hunting rifles:

a. fire the same bullets (if not bullets that are considerably larger with a hell of a lot more energy they hit with)
b. have equal or greater effective range
c. offer superior accuracy, and
d. can be employed with lethal efficiency in the same scenarios legislators claim to be preventing.

If the policy goal is to reduce lethality or prevent mass casualty events, then exempting traditional hunting rifles undermines the internal logic of the ban. You are not reducing access to lethal capability, you're relabeling which capabilities are socially acceptable. It's deceitful.


Third, Australia banned a bunch of firearms based on their actions. How deadly do you think a shooter would be if they had a sawed-off double barrel shotgun and pockets full of slugs or 00 buck? (or mixing them both). How fast can you reload a double barrel shotgun?


Lastly, your assurance that no one is coming for those guns rests entirely on political confidence. Once the justification for prohibition becomes “this class of firearm is too effective for civilian ownership,” there is no principled stopping point. The same logic applies cleanly to:

a. bolt-action rifles with detachable magazines,
b. high-caliber precision rifles; and
c. any long gun capable of sustained accurate fire.

That's my argument for banning your guns. 308's capable of long range shooting (I'm hardly Dallas Alexander and I can hit a man silhouette target at 800 meters), detachable magazine I can change in seconds. Slower but sustained rate of fire. Cargo pants full of 12 ga shells for a break open or pump action shotgun that won't jam. And some pistols just for flavor.

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If your hunting rifles are acceptable despite being demonstrably capable of mass harm, then banning “military-style” rifles is not about safety it's just is about optics. You're thinking your deadly firearms, capable of blowing away large animals from half a kilometer away, won't be banned next. :rolleyes:
 
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Your position hinges on the assertion that there is a meaningful, outcome relevant “functional difference in capability” between military flavored semi-automatic rifles and other commonly owned long guns. Such that banning one class meaningfully limits harm while leaving the rest intact. That premise is wet powder.
That premise played out in real time on Bondi beach.

That premise plays out in the purchasing decisions of militaries and LEO's globally.
 
That premise played out in real time on Bondi beach.

That premise plays out in the purchasing decisions of militaries and LEO's globally.

Bondi doesn't demonstrate what you claim. Australia banned all semi-automatic long guns (not military-style firearms based on appearance). That is a functional ban. You cannot use a comprehensive prohibition to justify a selective, optics-based ban.

As for militaries and police, their procurement decisions are driven by offensive parity, logistics, and liability, not by civilian mass-casualty prevention. The fact that a tool is optimal for professionals operating against armed adversaries does not make it uniquely responsible for harm against unarmed civilians.

If capability were the standard, hunting guns and precision rifles would not be exempt.

Read about Malcolm George Baker's weapon of choice. He could have easily doubled or tripled his body count had he not given up.

Don't kid yourself about how deadly your hunting guns are. I won't even start on how hunting rifles are used in more suicides in North America than AR15s. "If it saves one life" after all.
 
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