The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[LittleBlackDevil]

Here's an an article ref MP O'Toole's view on firearms. Sensible in my view. Via email

Thanks for posting this.

Mr. O'Toole's firearms policy was the thing that, at the last second, caused me to switch my vote from MacKay to O'Toole. Also, MacKay's stated position that "assault rifles" (i.e. black firearms) should be banned (cf. https://thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-mackay-proposed-ban-on).

 

[Donald H]

Here's an an article ref MP O'Toole's view on firearms. Sensible in my view. Via email


The CSSA Congratulates Erin O'Toole on his victory as the new Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada

Canada is a nation with proud rural and outdoor traditions. Learning to hunt or target shoot with a family member is a way of life for millions of Canadians and must be respected. Firearm owners, be they hunters, farmers or sport shooters are among the most law-abiding citizens in Canada.

Is that a quote of O'Toole?

If it is, I would be disappointed if Trudeau was challenged on it's substance and couldn't say the exact same thing.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I do believe the NS shooter's firearms were all illegally obtained as well.  So he simply ignored firearms laws, which is the bog standard thing for a criminal to do... you know, ignore laws.

He didn't just ignore firearms laws, it seems the RCMP in his case did too...

 

[shawn5o]

Is that a quote of O'Toole?

If it is, I would be disappointed if Trudeau was challenged on it's substance and couldn't say the exact same thing.

I can't say for sure Don

But it is from Canadian Shooting Sports Association. The editors may have put their spin on it.

 

[Haggis]

Is that a quote of O'Toole?

If it is, I would be disappointed if Trudeau was challenged on it's substance and couldn't say the exact same thing.

No, it is not.  It is, however, a statement of fact by the CSSA.  A fact that is routinely ignored by the left in their haste to craft new laws for criminals to thumb their noses at.

A Liberal MP was recently quoted by O'Toole stating "there is no such thing as a 'responsible gun owner' in Canada".  That's the ideology we are up against.

 

[stellarpanther]

Thankfully that's not accurate. Canada has some pretty robust self defense laws and examples of people not going to prison for self defense. Here's a short clip from a lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB2Z8yreRbY&app=desktop

You are wrong, what I said is very accurate,  Unless you or your family is being physically threaten there is a very good chance you will be charged if you shoot an intruder even in your house.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/im-glad-he-shot-him-newfoundland-man-up-on-murder-charges-for-shooting-home-invader

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

You are wrong, what I said is very accurate,  Unless you or your family is being physically threaten there is a very good chance you will be charged if you shoot an intruder even in your house.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/im-glad-he-shot-him-newfoundland-man-up-on-murder-charges-for-shooting-home-invader

To be fair, you didn't say "there is a very good chance you will be charged" you said "you will probably go to prison".

You're pretty much guaranteed to get charged. But you're very likely to be acquitted at trial, and therefore very unlikely to do jail time. Unless you have a prior criminal record, you will most likely get bail pending trial and therefore never go to prison but at most spend a night or two in a police station's overnight holding cells.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You are wrong, what I said is very accurate, 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/im-glad-he-shot-him-newfoundland-man-up-on-murder-charges-for-shooting-home-invader

You said:
if you shoot someone in your house, you will probably go to prison.

You should have picked a better example to prove your point.

The guy in your article had the charges dropped, did't even make it to trial.


Murder charge dropped against Gilbert Budgell, who police say killed home intruder

Crown says couldn't prove it wasn't self defence, no reasonable liklihood of conviction

Gilbert Budgell, a Botwood homeowner who police say shot and killed a man who was invading his home, will not face trial for murder charges.

Crown attorneys have decided not to proceed with a second-degree murder charge against Budgell, citing a low likelihood of securing a conviction.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4351371

 

[stellarpanther]

To be fair, you didn't say "there is a very good chance you will be charged" you said "you will probably go to prison".

You're pretty much guaranteed to get charged. But you're very likely to be acquitted at trial, and therefore very unlikely to do jail time. Unless you have a prior criminal record, you will most likely get bail pending trial and therefore never go to prison but at most spend a night or two in a police station's overnight holding cells.

You make a good points.  I also noted in your other post on this topic that the shooter, while likely to be acquitted will still be stuck with expensive legal bills. I have no idea what that amount could be but I would assume it could be pretty high for the average person.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard that sometimes just a charge is enough to ruin a persons life.  I can imagine a murder charge even if acquitted could be tough on a person afterwards.

,

 

[Stoker]

You make a good points.  I also noted in your other post on this topic that the shooter, while likely to be acquitted will still be stuck with expensive legal bills. I have no idea what that amount could be but I would assume it could be pretty high for the average person.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard that sometimes just a charge is enough to ruin a persons life.  I can imagine a murder charge even if acquitted could be tough on a person afterwards.

,

What would you rather have, some legal bills or be dead. I know what I would do. What would you do if you had an armed intruder?

 

[stellarpanther]

What would you rather have, some legal bills or be dead. I know what I would do. What would you do if you had an armed intruder?

I think it's a fair bet to say anyone would rather be alive but I'm just saying the consequences of shooting that person even if not convicted can still be severe.  Having legal bills probably in the tens of thousands of dollars can be enough to ruin someone as well.  I would suggest that unless you or your family's life is threaten let them have what they are stealing and call the police.  I don't own a gun but I can guarantee I would use whatever I could find, such as the bat under my bed to defend my family if they were at risk of being harmed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=stellarpanther.] I don't own a gun but I can guarantee I would use whatever I could find, such as the bat under my bed to defend my family if they were at risk of being harmed.
[/quote]

Interesting.
You wouldn't use a gun to shoot an animal to save yourself but you would use a bat to bludgeon someone threatening your family.

Would you use an AR15 to protect your family?

 

[Donald H]

I think it's a fair bet to say anyone would rather be alive but I'm just saying the consequences of shooting that person even if not convicted can still be severe.  Having legal bills probably in the tens of thousands of dollars can be enough to ruin someone as well.  I would suggest that unless you or your family's life is threaten let them have what they are stealing and call the police.  I don't own a gun but I can guarantee I would use whatever I could find, such as the bat under my bed to defend my family if they were at risk of being harmed.

You're safer not having a gun in the house for self defense.
https://www.thetrace.org/2020/04/gun-safety-research-coronavirus-gun-sales/

Having a gun in the home increases the chance for accidental injury, homicide, and suicide, all of which have been shown to outweigh the potential protective benefits of firearms.

This has been a pretty well known fact for a long time.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"You're safer not having a gun in the house for self defense."

What that actually means is, statistically most people are not safer, particularly those who are accident- and suicide-prone.  It doesn't mean I'm not.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You're safer not having a gun in the house for self defense.
https://www.thetrace.org/2020/04/gun-safety-research-coronavirus-gun-sales/

This has been a pretty well known fact for a long time.

Do you happen to have a Canadian source of research?

There's at least 75,634 of those AR15 rifles in Canada, the ones designed for killing. I'm wondering how many family members are murdered in their homes by these guns every month.

 

[Stoker]

Do you happen to have a Canadian source of research?

There's at least 75,634 of those AR15 rifles in Canada, the ones designed for killing. I'm wondering how many family members are murdered in their homes by these guns every month.

End of the day, due to no fault of my own I will more than likely be out thousands of dollars when everything is said and done.

 

[Donald H]

Do you happen to have a Canadian source of research?

No. There are relatively few Canadians who are hiding guns under their beds (or wherever) in Canada and so we are short of that kind of information I think. The US tells the story pretty well I think.

There's at least 75,634 of those AR15 rifles in Canada, the ones designed for killing. I'm wondering how many family members are murdered in their homes by these guns every month.

I haven't the slightest idea but I would assume it's not many. But I don't see any connection on that statistic to what I've said.

It does bring up an interesting question though. Numbers of AR type weapons (meaning black, semi-auto, assault weapon style which would include the FN's and AK's) as opposed to other legitimate hunting rifles, the number of people killed with each would be an interesting statistic. I would highly expect those who own hunting rifles and shotguns would be less likely to kill for any and all reasons.

Or another way of putting it would be, how many murders, suicides, accidental deaths happen with each type of weapon? On an even playing field in which the number of weapons of each type is considered.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I've been unfortunate enough to have more than a couple of friends self terminate themselves. Only one used a firearm, and it was a shotgun. One opened up his forearms with a box cutter, two decided a rope in the garage/basement was the way to go, and one swallowed about a years supply of oxy one afternoon. Almost every one of them owned firearms.

 

[Jarnhamar]

No. There are relatively few Canadians who are hiding guns under their beds (or wherever) in Canada and so we are short of that kind of information I think. The US tells the story pretty well I think.

Fair enough. When I can go hunting with an AR15 or carry around a concealed pistol I'll be happy to use US data on firearms.

I haven't the slightest idea but I would assume it's not many. But I don't see any connection on that statistic to what I've said.

I'm cheating a little. I've seen that research referenced a lot before.

The connection is the argument that guns in the house don't make them safer, it makes them (houses) more dangerous (well you know what I mean)
There's 20 million guns in Canadian houses. There doesn't seem to be a correlation in Canada where guns in the home make them less safe.

It does bring up an interesting question though. Numbers of AR type weapons (meaning black, semi-auto, assault weapon style which would include the FN's and AK's) as opposed to other legitimate hunting rifles, the number of people killed with each would be an interesting statistic. I would highly expect those who own hunting rifles and shotguns would be less likely to kill for any and all reasons.

Why? If my wife cheats on me am I going to be more inclined to murder her if I'm an AR15 owner instead of a shotgun owner?
What makes hunting rifle owners less likely to kill than target rifle owners?

 

[stellarpanther]

Would you use an AR15 to protect your family?

Seems like a strange question since I've already said I don't own a gun and have no interest in owning a gun, I can't see how I would have the option.  I suppose if someone was in my house and about to attack my family and one magically appeared, I would use it.