The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[ballz]

Many clubs will not rent to LEAs and some don't want LEOs as members, either.

It's pretty sad when the relationships between firearm owners and LEOs is so poor. In the US the firearms community are typically dyed-in-the-wool LEO supporters.

The Liberal govenments, *and* the RCMP leadership who have more than just supported them in this but actively sought to make life for firearm owners even harder than the law requires, are turned what should be productive, positive relationships into bitter mistrust for one another.

 

[Haggis]

It's pretty sad when the relationships between firearm owners and LEOs is so poor. In the US the firearms community are typically dyed-in-the-wool LEO supporters.

I have heard of isolated cases where LEOs have taken it upon themselves to visit gun clubs -  which are generally private properties -  and ask to see PALs, ATTs and check storage/transport conditions of members firearms, in essence trolling for offences.  This has undoubtedly poisoned the relationship in some areas.

There are several LE members of my club.  Most established members know who we are and generally, we keep a low profile.  We, as sport handgun shooters, obviously bemoan the latest Liberal theatrics as we know they will make no difference in the long run.

 

[OldSolduer]

Remember the flood in Calgary?
The RCMP took it upon themselves to enter vacated premises and seize firearms. Public Safety they said, which it may have been.
It didn’t appear that way to firearms owners.

 

[Jonezy76]

Remember the flood in Calgary High River?
The RCMP took it upon themselves to enter vacated premises and seize firearms. Public Safety they said, which it may have been.
It didn’t appear that way to firearms owners.

Public safety, my eye. They abused the public trust and broke into houses and safes. In the end cost taxpayers $2.3M.

A report released last year found that RCMP-led search teams used crowbars and sledgehammers, in some instances, to gain entry to homes and dragged mud and debris across floors as they searched for stranded people and pets and checked for gas leaks, weapons and other hazards. The house entries and seizures of more than 600 firearms sparked outrage among residents and even claims that gun safes had been breached by the Mounties. But an investigation by the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP could find no evidence to support those claims.
The watchdog did, however, criticize the Mounties for carrying out, in some cases, overly broad searches for firearms and contraband and for improperly seizing a number of guns that had been lawfully secured. (The Criminal Code allows only for warrantless seizures of unsecured firearms or contraband that are in “plain view”).

From here:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/high-river-residents-paid-2-3m-for-controversial-rcmp-home-and-gun-sweeps-during-2013-flood

 

[OldSolduer]

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There were accusations of the RCMP using information from the long gun registry which was supposed to be destroyed, too.

 

[ModlrMike]

New salvo fired by CBC:

Targeted - Inside the gun lobby's fight to save assault weapons in Canada.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Funny. There wasn't a "gun lobby" in Canada until gun owners backs got put to the wall.

Strange how people get militant when they are continually treated unfairly and demonized by their government...

 

[Cloud Cover]

Which police force is going to go on to FN land and disarm them of their "assault rifles" and other soon to be banned weapons.

I can't think of any officer I know that is prepared to face the two way range over that, and I would not support the army once again being asked to take up arms against people in our own country.

Eating crow and stand corrected: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/drugs-guns-cash-peguis-first-nation-1.5294088

Looks like they modified the barrel on the bolt action sniper rifle as well. This could have been a bloodbath.

 

[Jarnhamar]

75,634 AR15's as of August 14, 2019. A small drop in the bucket when you consider the number of other firearms that will likely be identified as "assault weapons". Easily over a million I'd say. Maybe closer to 5?
Wonder where the Liberals would get the money for compensation.


And what would the Liberals DO with all these firearms? Destroy them? Store them with the police?

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-hundreds-of-guns-go-missing-from-the-mounties-military-and-other-departments

Newly-released documents from the RCMP and other federal departments and agencies show that if the risk of lost and stolen guns is an issue, then we better think of taking guns from the Mounties, maybe even the military.

Firearms researcher Dennis Young obtained a list of the number of guns lost or stolen by police or public agencies from 2005 through 2019 and the numbers might shock you.

A total of 640 firearms were reported lost in that time frame, another 173 were reported stolen.

640 lost firearms. Ouch.  Military has lost 559 firearms and another 14 stolen between 2008-18.

 

[AbdullahD]

Sorry, I have a hard time believing in "lost" firearms. I think someone (multiple someones) have sticky fingers and can't resist.

I consider 95% of "lost" stats stolen personally.

Unless their is a logical reason, people can "lose" firearms easily.. happened in combat? Ok I'll buy that... but I don't think thats the case.

Abdullah

 

[Halifax Tar]

75,634 AR15's as of August 14, 2019. A small drop in the bucket when you consider the number of other firearms that will likely be identified as "assault weapons". Easily over a million I'd say. Maybe closer to 5?
Wonder where the Liberals would get the money for compensation.


And what would the Liberals DO with all these firearms? Destroy them? Store them with the police?

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-hundreds-of-guns-go-missing-from-the-mounties-military-and-other-departments
640 lost firearms. Ouch.  Military has lost 559 firearms and another 14 stolen between 2008-18.

As a guy who has been running SNACs, every quarter, for 2 decades I would like to know the details behind the 559 lost firearms and 14 stolen. 

If there is one thing we done mess about with its verifying those E class items (weapons) every quarter. 

Any destroyed in service are written off but that's not a loss in the same manner as this article is making it out.

 

[my72jeep]

Sorry, I have a hard time believing in "lost" firearms. I think someone (multiple someones) have sticky fingers and can't resist.

I consider 95% of "lost" stats stolen personally.

Unless their is a logical reason, people can "lose" firearms easily.. happened in combat? Ok I'll buy that... but I don't think thats the case.

Abdullah

I’ve seen two weapons lost one went overboard in swan lake (nothing comes back out of that place, second one off a bridge in Germany so yes lost does happen.

 

[garb811]

Looking at what was produced in response to that ATIP request, it looks like someone took the lazy way out when they processed it by just doing a generic CCJS search in SAMPIS without actually seeing what the items lost actually was. "THEFT, PUBLIC (WEAPON)" or "LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPON)" can be anything that is associated with a weapon. So some of those will be actual weapons, but the vast majority will be EIS items, probably with C7/C8 mags topping the list by a huge margin.

ie. Between 20 and 30 July 2012 there were 13 LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPONS) files generated in Gagetown. Do you think that might not have warranted some kind of panic if there were 13 instances of actual weapons being lost, or is it more probable 13 items of EIS being lost by students out in the training area and recorded under that CCJS code because there isn't any other alternative? Anyone who has been DS on a course in Gagetown, Wainwright, Petawawa, Meaford etc has probably had to deal with at least one lost mag at the end of a trace...

Edit: Typo

 

[ballz]

ie. Between 20 and 30 July 2012 there were 13 LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPONS) files generated in Gagetown.

Tangent, but somewhere in that 10-day period the entire Infantry School was sweeping for a lost ELCAN by one of the demo staff. I remember missing our forced rest window for it during Ph III. Your post was a trigger for a memory I had repressed.

 

[AbdullahD]

I’ve seen two weapons lost one went overboard in swan lake (nothing comes back out of that place, second one off a bridge in Germany so yes lost does happen.

I believe 100% that loss DOES happen, but at what rate I feel is subject to debate. Had a quick look at your profile, you have 30 some odd years of service? And personally seen 2 weapons lost?

I am not trying to insult, belittle or mock the respective organizations. I just think, maybe x% of firearms reported as lost are actually stolen is all. I originally stated 95%, but I think maybe I was to harsh with that.

Regardless legitimate cases exist. No debate at all, I have been around the block enough to know crap happens.

Abdullah

 

[Haggis]

Anyone who has been DS on a course in Gagetown, Wainwright, Petawawa, Meaford etc has probably had to deal with at least one lost mag at the end of a trace...

And to the folks who say "it's just a mag", it's also a prohibited device under the CC and FA and a controlled asset. How many "lost mags" have been recovered by contractors, scavengers in the trg areas (yes, it happens) or follow-on course and never properly dealt with?

 

[garb811]

Tangent, but somewhere in that 10-day period the entire Infantry School was sweeping for a lost ELCAN by one of the demo staff. I remember missing our forced rest window for it during Ph III. Your post was a trigger for a memory I had repressed.

It isn't a tangent. If the ELCAN wasn't found, it will be one of those files.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And to the folks who say "it's just a mag", it's also a prohibited device under the CC and FA and a controlled asset. How many "lost mags" have been recovered by contractors, scavengers in the trg areas (yes, it happens) or follow-on course and never properly dealt with?

Crap happens when doing the business.  I've dropped mags during quick mag change on an attack and seen some go missing on an attack. Train like you fight and sometimes you just don't have time to put them in the drop pouch. 

Luckily the miltiary isn't beholden to the firearms act, otherwise we would never get any real training done. 

As for lost weapons, funniest one I saw was a Canadian Maple Branch snag a C7 out of the bustle rack of a LAV.  Spent a couple of hours driving around looking for that thieving tree! 

 

[Haggis]

Luckily the military isn't beholden to the firearms act, otherwise we would never get any real training done. 

I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that the item is still prohibited when not in the lawful (i.e. duty or training related) possession of a CAF member or other exempted person.  E.g. A troop "loses" a C7 magazine or two on an FTX.  Then, he uses the magazine in his dreaded S&W AR-15 clone on a civilian range.  That magazine is prohibited as it is not lawfully in his possession as he is now subject to the CCC/FA .  That's what I meant.