The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Donald H]

Donald I think you may be confusing/conflating the ideology of Liberalism with the ideology of the Liberal Party of Canada. I think in this case people are discussing what they think the ideas of the Liberal Party of Canada are in practice not Liberalism as a stand alone philosphy. Just because someone calls themselves something does not make it true just the same as to be called something by someone else does not make it true.

Fair enough Suffolk. The link was meant as my attempt to place the Liberal party on the political spectrum. So would you place them as left of center? And would you place the CPC as right of center?

The whole point of the exercise is a challenge to show that the left is tradionally gun control throughout the world.

As for Australia, I don't know if it was the left or the right that brough in the extreme measures on gun control because I don't know where all of their political parties stand. I did note however that they voted recently to keep in place some gun control measures by a margin of 33 to 25.

Some Australian member here could likely clarify some points and further comment on their current system which appears to be pretty extreme. I don't think that Canada is intent on going 'there'.

 

[ballz]

To say that the entire Liberal party criminalizes lawful gun owners would be equivalent to me saying the entire Conservative party is racist because MP Derek Sloan is a racist.

You're right, there is no way such a broad brush could be 100% accurate if you're going to break down to individual MPs. If the criteria is that every individual MP must be racist for a party to be racist, you'd be right, but I would argue that's a pretty narrow definition.

If the Conservatives had a bunch of racists, who are "actively" racists in their policies and comments, and every time a minority group stole something the CPC wanted to go after all the other law-abiding visible minority citizens, and the rest of the party who disagreed were complicit... then we'd be right in calling the CPC a "racist party" and we'd be right to do so. Replace this scenario with the Liberals and legal firearm owners, and it's a pretty accurate comparison.

Not arguing your point, but how many Conservative MPs spoke out against Stephen Harper when he was PM?  It's likely more of a reflection of the PMO/PCO domination of our political system than any one specific party leader.

Most definitely. It's crazy to watch it happen, but we can watch each successive government bring more and more power into the executive branch. Canada's constitution seems powerless to stop it.

 

[Haggis]

And a steady stream of shooting spree violence. What really doesn’t resonate with them is that the violence is rarely caused by licensed gun owners.

Shooting "sprees" in Canada are exceedingly rare. The constant use by anti-gun activists of foreign statistics and criminal acts to advance a domestic agenda is simply dishonest.  Our firearms laws are vastly different than even the strictest of those of our southern neighbours.  The anti-gun movement is counting on Joe and Josephine Canada to not distinguish between the two.

When the Coalition for Gun Control posits to the media that lawful gun owners are more of a deadly threat to Canadian society than criminals because we practice and become proficient with out firearms,  then you know the argument has abandoned fact entirely.

Some Australian member here could likely clarify some points and further comment on their current system which appears to be pretty extreme. I don't think that Canada is intent on going 'there'.

We are closer to 'there' than I think you realize.  Since the initial ban on May 1st, the RCMP have since banned an additional several hundred firearm models without any check or balance.  The promised municipal handgun ban, which I expect to become a national ban for reasons I stated earlier, will be tabled when the House sits this this Fall. 'There' is just awaiting the next election.

 

[suffolkowner]

Fair enough Suffolk. The link was meant as my attempt to place the Liberal party on the political spectrum. So would you place them as left of center? And would you place the CPC as right of center?

The whole point of the exercise is a challenge to show that the left is tradionally gun control throughout the world.

As for Australia, I don't know if it was the left or the right that brough in the extreme measures on gun control because I don't know where all of their political parties stand. I did note however that they voted recently to keep in place some gun control measures by a margin of 33 to 25.

Some Australian member here could likely clarify some points and further comment on their current system which appears to be pretty extreme. I don't think that Canada is intent on going 'there'.

I tend to view the left-right dichotomy like all in that they are not true representations of reality but to be judged more on their usefulness. Nonetheless, in my mind the current Liberal party is a little too far to the left and the current Conservative party a little too far to the right to offer reasonable alternatives for my voting preferences.

I have quite a few friends who came from Eastern Europe or their families did and they for sure correlate gun rights and the lack thereof with leftist ideology and thus are very outspoken on the issue.

As far as Australia goes they may have passed restrictive gun laws but how many actually follow them. I know there was a reduction in mass shootings there but I'm not sure what all the factors could be

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've seen a couple comments on Reddit here and there about mass filings of Sec.74 challenges with the coincidental (or purposeful) result of tying up the already overburdened court system causing actual violent criminals to be released under the Jordan clause I believe it's called (tried under reasonable times).

One hell of a way to protest.

 

[Haggis]

I've seen a couple comments on Reddit here and there about mass filings of Sec.74 challenges with the coincidental (or purposeful) result of tying up the already overburdened court system causing actual violent criminals to be released under the Jordan clause I believe it's called (tried under reasonable times).

Those cases on the docket now, ahead of s. 74 filings, will be heard first.  The risk is those that come after a mass of s. 74 filings may cause more serious criminal cases to be thrown out under s. 11(b) of the Charter.

There is still the question of if s.74 appeals are of any use.  The RCMP website now states that the now nullified registration certificates were the result in a change of legislation and not the result of a Registrar's decision, which is the basis for a s. 74 review.  The inference here is that a s.74 challenge cannot be mounted.

 

[Donald H]

You're right, there is no way such a broad brush could be 100% accurate if you're going to break down to individual MPs. If the criteria is that every individual MP must be racist for a party to be racist, you'd be right, but I would argue that's a pretty narrow definition.

Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

It might be 10% accurate in both cases.

And the real question is on what % of the Canadian people want  some  level of gun control. That which amounts to sensible and necessary is the question.

Do you want to get down to specifics with me? I wouldn't touch Canada's handgun laws at all.

Both parties are likely pretty well confident that they can play politics with the issue now and that's far more important then anything else. Very similar to how Trump plays politics with racism in the US. The latter is a point that's being debated on another thread.

 

[Haggis]

Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

  The Liberal Party has as it's stated aim, since at least 1994, to disarm the Canadian public.

"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers." and "Protection of life is not a legitimate use for a firearm in this country, sir. Not!  That is expressly ruled out"  Allan Rock, Liberal Justice Minister, 1994.

Then, let's look at what Liberal Senator Sharon Carstairs said in 1996: "C68 has little to do with gun control or crime control but is the first step necessary to begin the social reengineering of Canada."

Liberal Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy had this to say in 1998:  "Canada will be one of the first unarmed countries in the world." and "Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."

Finally, Liberal Justice Minister Ann McLelland came out strongly in favour of any Canadian using firearms for self defence, and, in particular, against concealed carry of any type.  (McLelland had been hand-picked to participate in the Nova Scotia mass killing independent review but withdrew when it became a public inquiry.)

These views were supported by the party and the PM.

And the real question is on what % of the Canadian people want  some  level of gun control. That which amounts to sensible and necessary is the question.

Depends on who you ask.  Most Canadians are quite uninformed on what the current laws are regarding licencing, magazine capacity and storage regulations.  In fact many gun owners only know the laws pertaining to the specific firearm(s) they own.  Non-restricted owners and the general public would be shocked to know exactly what is required to legally possess and use a handgun in Canada

Our own PM publicly stated that you could buy a gun in Canada without having to show a licence (PAL).  While I'm sure he was inferring that his statement applied only to illegal gun sales, he deliberately left that fact out.  Again, that's dishonest, but not surprising.

 

[ballz]

Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

It might be 10% accurate in both cases.

I think you missed the point of my post, or cherry-picked a quote to take out of context.

It may not be 100% accurate to say that every Liberal MP's thoughts toward firearm ownership is that we (law-abiding firearm owners) are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments... but that alone doesn't defeat the assertion that the Liberal Party thinks we are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments...

It's actually just setting a fairly ridiculously high bar for that assertion... you can't get 100% of 100+ people on anything.

 

[Donald H]

I think you missed the point of my post, or cherry-picked a quote to take out of context.

No, I didn't miss your point and I didn't cherry pick. I'm fully aware of your opinion "that the Liberal Party thinks we are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments..."

 

[Haggis]

After what happened publicly to JWR, Jane Philpot and Celina Caesar-Chavannes when they drew the PM's ire, I doubt any Liberal MP would even privately break ranks with the PM on the firearms issue. This is not a big enough hill for them to die on.

 

[Jarnhamar]

After what happened publicly to JWR, Jane Philpot and Celina Caesar-Chavannes when they drew the PM's ire, I doubt any Liberal MP would even privately break ranks with the PM on the firearms issue. This is not a big enough hill for them to die on.

Exactly.

Liberal MPs can secretly love AR15s and love shooting as much as they want, the Liberal party is anti-firearm which means the MPs are effectively anti-firearm. They throw out comments about supporting farmers and legal gun owners but that's as believable as Justin Trudeau saying he won't violate the ethics act again.
MP's know full well what will happen if they go against the PM's wishes.

 

[Haggis]

Exactly.

Liberal MPs can secretly love AR15s and love shooting as much as they want, the Liberal party is anti-firearm which means the MPs are effectively anti-firearm......
MP's know full well what will happen if they go against the PM's wishes.

Which is why maintaining the integrity of rhe party image is crucial. When was the last time anyone saw a photo of a Liberal MP with a handgun or scary black rifle taken since Trudeau came to power?

 

[shawn5o]

You could be right, but you also could be wrong. There's a way of finding out! If we take the accepted priorities of both the left and the right we should find some indications of just what their respective priorities are on nearly all issues.

If the US is the most rightist country in the world then it would be fair to say that they represent extremism on gun ownership.

As for the most anti-gun country in the world, what country would that be and where does that country fit on the political spectrum? And is that country the extreme left? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

As a wild guess, Australia may be one of the most anti-gun countries.

Here's my contribution to represent the priorities of the left: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO8OxfFiVv8

prohibition: In a few countries, including Cambodia, Eritrea, and the Solomon Islands, ownership of firearms is completely prohibited.
(source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation)

 

[Jarnhamar]

Treat yourself.

https://twitter.com/firearmsoutlet1/status/1293219694669901824?s=12

 

[Halifax Tar]

Treat yourself.

https://twitter.com/firearmsoutlet1/status/1293219694669901824?s=12

Why ?  Why now ?  This will not buy us any credibility with the swing opinions on this topic.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Pretty awesome right? Good for melting ice on your drive way (which is super annoying).
As for any credibility with swing voters or whatever, it doesn't matter. You've seen how uninformed a lot of Canadians are about guns.


Personally I find this more scary and dangerous.

B.C. police officer deletes cellphone video after pointing gun at bystander
https://globalnews.ca/news/7264225/abbotsford-police-cellphone-video-mistake/?utm_source=%40globalnews&utm_medium=Twitter

 

[Haggis]

The Notice of Proposed Procurement is out for the design of a potential buyback program for those firearms recently prohibited by OIC.  Only certain firms need apply.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

I've seen a couple comments on Reddit here and there about mass filings of Sec.74 challenges with the coincidental (or purposeful) result of tying up the already overburdened court system causing actual violent criminals to be released under the Jordan clause I believe it's called (tried under reasonable times).

One hell of a way to protest.

It's not the "Jordan clause" -- the right to trial within a reasonable time is guaranteed by s. 11(b) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms."Jordan" refers to the case of R. v. Jordan, 2016 SCC 27, which laid out a new/updated framework for determining what is "reasonable". Essentially, it is a ceiling of 18 months for a case at provincial court, or 30 months at superior court. If a case exceeds that timeframe without being concluded, it is presumed to breach s. 11(b) but this presumption can be displaced by the defence causing delay or "exceptional circumstances". COVID-19 will certainly be considered "exceptional circumstances" such that the Jordan guidelines/presumptive timelines essentially do not exist anymore.

I think that this protest may be an effective way of going about it. It's not the firearms owners' fault, it's the prosecutors' fault, if they determine that its so important to take lawful firearms owners firearms away that they're willing to let real criminals go.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

It might be 10% accurate in both cases.

I'd say that a lot more than 10% of LPC party members want to take away peoples' guns, otherwise it would not have been a key policy that the Party campaigned on. I haven't gone out and counted but I'm pretty sure more than 10% of LPC members have publicly stated support for Trudeau's undemocratic gun control measures.

And the real question is on what % of the Canadian people want  some  level of gun control. That which amounts to sensible and necessary is the question.

The problem is that the vast majority of Canadians are completely ignorant of what Canada's gun laws are. Because of our proximity to the US, the availability of their media, and even Canadian media reporting on their news, combined with irresponsible/dishonest propaganda from the anti-gun lobby, most Canadians think we have no gun control or very limited gun control.