The Great Gun Control Debate

[JorgSlice]

Colorado has one of the lowest mental health treatment rates in the USA.  About 15% of mentally ill individuals get treatment. Could this possible be a more relevant issue?

The worst state for mental health spending is Florida. Did anything weird happen there?

Yeah, people snorted bath salts and then ate the face off another person.

Among other things....

 

[Sythen]

Yeah, people snorted bath salts and then ate the face off another person.

Among other things....

Off topic, I know but it wasn't bath salts found in his system.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/bath-salts-marijuana-face-eating-killer-miami-cannibal-143149305.html

 

[JorgSlice]

Off topic, I know but it wasn't bath salts found in his system.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/bath-salts-marijuana-face-eating-killer-miami-cannibal-143149305.html

Oh right, but wasn't there a case were bath salts were the cause? Texas I believe... not entirely sure.

Back to the topic at hand though REF: Col, Fla and mental health + guns.

I did extensive research during my Field Trial period for my Forensic Investigation degree about the correlation between firearms, their origin in crimes/gangs and the link to mental health. While the number 1 cause of firearm related deaths in Canada is suicide, it was surprising to learn that while most suicide cases did have links to mental health, there was still a large portion of cases where the subjects had no mental illness whatsoever.

During my time with the BC Integrated Homicide Investigation Team and Gang Task Force, I had the opportunity to attend such a case. Without going into too much OPSEC/PERSEC, the subject had reportedly been struggling to find sustainable employment however led an active and healthy lifestyle. His employer handed down notices of "Downsizing Departments" which listed his position as one that would no longer be retained... The day he had to pack up his office supplies, he blew himself apart in his parked car. He had no medical issues, no mental health issues, and when going through records with a Pathologist, neither did many generations of his family. If he indeed did have mental illness, he showed no symptoms, was never diagnosed and went untreated however we had no evidence to say it was mental illness related. Successful nor attempted suicide is NOT a definite conclusion of mental illness, however it is an indication. He was a long-time licensed firearm owner and avid, competitive marksman, his firearms (even the one to do the deed) was registered and legal. Another shooting incident I attended was not so grim, house was riddled with , was drug and FOREIGN POLITICS FUELLED DISPUTE (something about stuff going down in Punjab, India). Firearm was dumped in a water barrel behind the house. The firearm was illegally imported from India, registered IN INDIA, and the suspect failed refugee status one year, then gained immigration - came here and was somehow determined ineligible for Citizenship not just once, but twice before becoming a Canadian citizen.

Colorado may have the lowest number of treated mentally ill, but, does this reflect on Colorado as having the highest number of gun related deaths, suicides, and other such occurrences? Florida has a much higher rate of firearm related crimes, but how many are linked to mental illness as a result of their funding? I'm not sure.

Mr. Holmes, unfortunately (from what I understand), was already seeing a psychiatrist previously - presumably for his own health, but I will not comment further until evidence is collected and the trial proceeds.

The problem with mental health too, is that even when the police show up to your door and you're arrested and certified under Section 28 of the Mental Health Act... you become part of the statistic, regardless if diagnosed or not. The Section 28 certification from the Police alone is good for a 24 hour hold in hospital. The creation of mental health stats is flawed because of this MHA Certification tool that police services have. Does the fact that someone was even certified due to erroneous report and being a firearm owner mean that I should be banned from owning firearms along with the rest of my countrymenpeople? No. I am a strong believer in Bearing Arms like our neighbours to the south... but the Reds (left of centre) seem to think it will create complete chaos and anarchy.

Edit: Actually, reading this after posting, I'm not really sure what point I was trying to make. Little sleep... too much coffee.

 

[DexOlesa]

Hundreds of other mass murderers have perpetrated their crimes without automatic firearms.

Yes, like this one. I am really getting tired of people not understanding Automatic vs semi-automatic. All told, the shotgun he brought was probably the most effective weapon in that theatre, but of course we will focus on the "assault rifle" he was carrying.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's stick to Canadian Gun Control folks.

 

[Nemo888]

If we can discover why America has so many shootings compared to let's say Norway which has military style assault weapons in many homes we can emulate Norway and not enact irrelevant gun laws.

I'll pull a short excerpt from Malcolm Gladwell's very fun book Outliers.

(When I put "quote" code they are so small they hurt my old eyes.)
___________________________________________________________________________________


Many years ago, the southern newspaperman Hodding
Carter told the story of how as a young man he served on a
jury. As Reed describes it:

The case before the jury involved an irascible gentleman
who lived next door to a filling station. For several months
he had been the butt of various jokes played by the attendants
and the miscellaneous loafers who hung around the
station, despite his warnings and his notorious short temper.
One morning, he emptied both barrels of his shotgun at
his tormenters, killing one, maiming another permanently,
and wounding a third.... When the jury was polled by the
incredulous judge, Carter was the only juror who recorded
his vote as guilty. As one of the others put it, "He wouldn't
of been much of a man if he hadn't shot them fellows."


Only in a culture of honor would it have occurred
to the irascible gentleman that shooting someone was an
appropriate response to a personal insult. And only in
a culture of honor would it have occurred to a jury that
murder—under those circumstances—was not a crime.
I realize that we are often wary of making these
kinds of broad generalizations about different cultural
groups—and with good reason. This is the form that
racial and ethnic stereotypes take. We want to believe that
we are not prisoners of our ethnic histories.
But the simple truth is that if you want to understand
what happened in those small towns in Kentucky
in the nineteenth century, you have to go back into the
past—and not just one or two generations. You have to
go back two or three or four hundred years, to a country
on the other side of the ocean, and look closely at what
exactly the people in a very specific geographic area of that
country did for a living. The "culture of honor" hypothesis
says that it matters where you're from, not just in
terms of where you grew up or where your parents grew
up, but in terms of where your great-grandparents and
great-great-grandparents grew up and even where your
great-great-great-grandparents grew up. That is a strange
and powerful fact. It's just the beginning, though, because
upon closer examination, cultural legacies turn out to be
even stranger and more powerful than that.

 

[a_majoor]

If we can discover why America has so many shootings compared to let's say Norway which has military style assault weapons in many homes we can emulate Norway and not enact irrelevant gun laws.

I'll pull a short excerpt from Malcolm Gladwell's very fun book Outliers.

(When I put "quote" code they are so small they hurt my old eyes.)

To put the "so many shootings meme into perspective, here is a (huge) graphic from the NP that can be downloaded: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-around-the-world-graphic/

As an incidental, while there are some US cities which are quite dangerous (Washington DC comes to mind, and Chicago is the gun homicide capital of the world right now), it is impossible to generalize since there are so many different factors (including local gun laws) which are in play.

 

[Sig_Des]

Saw this one on the National DIN news site.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Guns+prohibited+ammunition+scopes+grenades+bullet+proof+vests+seized+from+Metchosin+home/7053814/story.html

Guns, prohibited ammunition, scopes, grenades, bullet proof vests seized from Metchosin home
By Katie DeRosa, timescolonist.com August 7, 2012

West Shore RCMP seized a dozen guns and prohibited ammunition from a Metchosin home and a man in his 20s could face criminal charges.

The department’s street crime unit and uniformed officers raided the home Thursday and found firearms, some loaded, improperly stored throughout the house; under a bed, in the kitchen, living room and in a safe that was left unlocked, said West Shore RCMP spokesman Sgt. Max Fossum.

While the eight rifles and four hand guns were registered, some were modified with accessories such as scopes, lights and a tripod which might make them restricted or prohibited weapons, Fossum said. There were gun parts all over the house, evidence that the guns had been modified.

Const. Olen Bernardo, one of the investigators, said some of the guns were modified to look “more menacing” and he doubts any of them were used for hunting purposes. 

Investigators also seized dozens of illegal magazines and three bullet proof vests. When police first entered the house, they also found grenades, which almost sparked a call to the RCMP explosives unit, but the grenades had been rendered safe.

“We’re asking the question, why so many guns?” he said.

Investigators are going to send the guns to a lab to determine whether any of the semi-automatic assault rifles had been modified to be fully automatic weapons, which are illegal.

Two people were in the house at the time and a third man also lives in the home. The man who owns the guns is in his late 20s. No charges have been laid yet but the investigation is ongoing, Fossum said.

Mounties are in touch with Canadian Forces personnel but would not confirm if the gun owner is a member of the military.

Fossum said the RCMP will apply to keep the guns, even if no criminal charges are laid. Police have to be able to argue the owner possessing the guns are a risk to public safety. Police can also make an application to have the gun owner prohibited from owning firearms in the future if they can prove he put people are risk by storing them improperly.

The fact that the guns were not locked up and that one of the hand guns was loaded is a major concern, Fossum said, because of the risk they could be stolen if the home was broken into. 

“There was a safe there, I don’t know why it wasn’t locked,” Fossum said. “There’s no excuse for that.”

© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

I won't speak as to the prohibited mags, unsafe storage or grenades, however it's nice to see firearms knowledge in those who are investigating; Since when does adding scopes, flashlights or bipods (I imagine that's what they meant instead of tripods make a weapon restricted or prohibited?

And gun parts are evidence that a weapon's been modified? Yes, but not necessarily to anything illegal. I wonder what they'd say if they saw my basement workbench? "An AR pistol grip and detente spring? Obviously up to nefarious activities!"

I'm not trying to overly chastise the cops, I have a lot of respect for our Brothers in blue, but I dislike over-the-top unnecessary and uninformed vilification. It just perpetuates the criminal stereotype of gun owners, even the ones who follow all the rules.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I know of some shotguns, modified by police that would be prohibited, I don't believe police are exempt from the law that prohibits the sawing off of barrels as only a licensed manufacturer is allowed to do so in Canada.

 

[Journeyman]

I wonder what they'd say if they saw my basement workbench? "An AR pistol grip and detente spring? Obviously up to nefarious activities!"

But in your case, you probably are up to something nefarious.  ;D

 

[Sig_Des]

But in your case, you probably are up to something nefarious.  ;D

Yes, but that has nothing to do with my guns....

 

[GAP]

Other than the lack of storage aspects, I don't see an issue there.....this rhetoric is getting ridiculous  :

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... on gun smuggling and big sentencing:

The Honourable Vic Toews, Minister of Public Safety, today issued a statement following two recent announcements by the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) of mandatory three-year prison sentences imposed by Manitoba and Alberta courts for firearms smuggling. George Foster was sentenced on July 24, 2012 for smuggling 75 guns, including 48 handguns – four of which were loaded – and 12 high capacity magazines hidden inside his pickup truck, at the port of Coutts, AB. Dorion Larry Ozykowski was sentenced on August 7, 2012 for smuggling a prohibited 9mm handgun and a prohibited magazine clip, along with ammunition into Canada. Both men pleaded guilty to Criminal Code and Customs Act offenses.

"Mandatory sentences for gun-related offences send a strong message to individuals who attempt to circumvent our laws. I commend the CBSA for its vigilance in detecting and disrupting this smuggling effort. By preventing handguns from illegally entering this country, our border officials are helping keep our streets and communities safe.

Our Government's Tackling Violent Crime Act received Royal Assent in February 2008 and included higher mandatory prison sentences for serious firearm-related offences. These include three years on a first offence and five years on a second or subsequent offence for firearm trafficking, possession for the purpose of firearm trafficking, firearm smuggling and illegal possession of a restricted or prohibited firearm, loaded or with ammunition."

For more details on the Ozykowski and Foster sentences, visit the CBSA website:
http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/media/prosecutions-poursuites/pra/2012-08-08-eng.html
http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/media/prosecutions-poursuites/pra/2012-07-27-eng.html) ....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Judging by the article quality, I wonder if "loaded guns" = Loaded magazine for gun, but not in gun.

 

[Robert0288]

While the eight rifles and four hand guns were registered, some were modified with accessories such as scopes, lights and a tripod which might make them restricted or prohibited weapons, Fossum said. There were gun parts all over the house, evidence that the guns had been modified.

Const. Olen Bernardo, one of the investigators, said some of the guns were modified to look “more menacing” and he doubts any of them were used for hunting purposes.

Since when do lights and sights make things illegal?  Since when is scary illegal?  This is a picture I found on the internet of a M14, same rifle 3 different sets of furniture all legal for hunting. 

These kind of articles make my head hurt.  I really do wish the media would stop sensationalizing this stories or the writers would write facts rather than feelings.

 

[PuckChaser]

These kind of articles make my head hurt.  I really do wish the media would stop sensationalizing this stories or the writers would write facts rather than feelings.

Seems the police in this case were doing some of the sensationalizing, which is beyond mind-boggling.

 

[a_majoor]

And on the pro ownership side, a story from the States which serves to illustrate the old saying, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". Luckily, the woman had both the tools (firearm, knives and axes) at hand and the presence of mind to arm herself and her daughters when confronted by a home invader. Since much of the story is in the embedded video, the final outcome was the intruder continued to advance on the family and the mother used the firearm in self defense before the police were able to arrive on the scene:

http://www.ncgunblog.com/2012/08/18/heavily-armed-alabama-mom-invites-intruder-to-lie-down-for-a-bit-video/

Heavily armed Alabama mom invites intruder to lie down for a bit (*Video*)
Posted on August 18, 2012 | 11 Comments

Intruder breaks in, mom calls cops, grabs gun, runs upstairs to daughters’ rooms and tells them to arm up.

Martha Lewis of Dora, Ala. told WVTM-TV it was about 3 a.m. Tuesday morning when she heard a loud noise, which turned out to be someone kicking in her door. Lewis said she called the police and grabbed her gun, then went to her daughters’ room and told them each to get something to defend themselves with. She said one grabbed an ax and one got a butcher knife. 

When momma’s got a gun and her two daughters can quickly lay their hands on a butcher knife and an axe, you’ve become the very definition of “failure in the victim selection process.”

(RSS Readers, Click for Video)

The story has a happy ending.

The man stumbled outside into the yard where police found him, WVTM reported. Police said he’s 25-year-old Michael Jacobs and was hospitalized in stable condition.

And the daughters didn’t even have to swing the axe.

Watch the video above to see what Mom thinks of anti-gunners.

Update: It occurs to me that there are people in the world who would call this woman and her daughters “paranoid” for having a gun, knife, and an axe close to hand in the event of a home invasion. The anti self-defense crowd would insist that she quit living in fear. They don’t care if she and her daughters were raped, robbed, and murdered. They are perfectly willing to sacrifice this family to live in a world without legally owned weapons.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And on the pro ownership side, a story from the States which serves to illustrate the old saying, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". Luckily, the woman had both the tools (firearm, knives and axes) at hand and the presence of mind to arm herself and her daughters when confronted by a home invader. Since much of the story is in the embedded video, the final outcome was the intruder continued to advance on the family and the mother used the firearm in self defense before the police were able to arrive on the scene:

http://www.ncgunblog.com/2012/08/18/heavily-armed-alabama-mom-invites-intruder-to-lie-down-for-a-bit-video/

We've been here a dozen times.

I'll state this one more time.

This thread is about Canadian Gun Laws.

We're done entertaining every little gun article from the States, trying to make some tenuous relation to Canada.

As much as we'd like to have some of the same liberties as them, It's not what this thread is speaking to.

Nor is what is happening there, having any influence whatsoever on what happens here.

This is not the first warning about this or these articles, but it will be the last.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Seems the police in this case were doing some of the sensationalizing, which is beyond mind-boggling.

Sometimes its not sensationalizing, but a lack of knowledge about firearms.  Example, a couple of years ago the Kingston Whig-Standard had an article about police confiscating an "AK-47" and had a picture of a officer with the AK-47. The only thing was that the AK-47 was actually a modified SKS.

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the Minister's news release:

The Honourable Vic Toews, Canada's Minister of Public Safety, announced today the Government of Canada's intent to repeal the Gun Shows Regulations. The Government's proposal to repeal the Regulations will be published in the September 8th, 2012 issue of the Canada Gazette. The Gun Shows Regulations were introduced in 1998 under the Firearms Act but have never come into force.

"Repealing the unnecessary Gun Shows Regulations shows our Government is focusing on protecting families and communities and not pushing administrative burdens on law-abiding gun owners," said Minister Toews. "We will continue to tackle crime by getting guns out of the hands of criminals and off our streets."

"Allowing redundant regulations to come into force would only introduce an unnecessary burden on law-abiding citizens," said Candice Hoeppner, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety. "We have successfully introduced legislation that fights gang crime, drug crime, violent and repeat offenders. These are the reforms that Canadians need and deserve most, in order to tackle real crime and real criminals."

After they were introduced, the Gun Shows Regulations were deferred from coming into force to allow for further study and stakeholder consultation. The deferral gave officials the opportunity to explore if there was a need for the Regulations and to identify any overlap with already existing regulations

The Gun Shows Regulations are unnecessary as the storage and display of firearms at gun shows are already governed by the Storage, Display and Transportation of Firearms and Other Weapons by Businesses Regulations and the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations under the Firearms Act ....

From the Regulatory Impact Analysis Statement (also attached if link doesn't work):

.... 5. Consultation

The Minister’s Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee (CFAC) has been consulted regarding the Regulations on a number of occasions, including most recently in March 2012. The CFAC is of the view that the majority of gun show sponsors and exhibitors generally comply with the Regulations. The CFAC has suggested that the Regulations should not be brought into force as they serve no demonstrable purpose not already served by the general Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms Regulations, which are currently in force.

The CFO community is supportive of implementing the Regulations and has stated that bringing the Regulations into force would contribute to the promotion of public safety by regulating venue security and providing clear storage and display requirements designed for the unique context of a gun show. At the same time, the CFO community has acknowledged that the number of recorded incidents at gun shows is very low and that such events do not pose a significant public safety risk.

6. Rationale

The Regulations, if implemented, would impose requirements on those wishing to sponsor, or exhibit at, a gun show. As there have only been two recorded incidents where activities at a gun show could have had a public safety implication, and given that the storage and display of firearms is governed by existing regulations (the general Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms Regulations), the Gun Shows Regulations are unnecessary ....