• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Great Gun Control Debate

Status
Not open for further replies.
Meanwhile, from the "NDP is all about democracy and free votes" file.....
Two Thunder Bay-area New Democratic Party MPs have been punished for voting in favour of the abolition of the long-gun registry.

Thunder Bay-Superior North MP Bruce Hyer and Thunder Bay-Rainy River MP John Rafferty will not be allowed to make statements or ask questions in the Commons chamber.

They were also removed from their critics' roles.

The term of their discipline is unknown but Rafferty said it will last until the gun registry issue has been dealt with in Parliament.

The two went against the NDP's official position and voted with the government this week during the second reading of the bill to abolish the controversial long-gun registry.

Jack Harris, the NDP's justice critic, said Rafferty and Hyer had been warned they would suffer "the consequences" if they broke ranks.

Harris said the two members were sanctioned by NDP Interim Leader Nycole Turmel. Dennis Bevington, the NDP member for the Western Arctic in the Northwest Territories, abstained from voting and Nathan Cullen, who is a candidate for the NDP leadership, left the house before the vote.

Turmel did not indicate Wednesday if the party line would be enforced more rigidly when the long-gun registry comes to a final vote ....
CBC.ca, 3 Nov 11
 
Jim Seggie said:
SURE they are......Mind you the other parties are the same.
True, but we've seen the other parties be the same, while the NDP is trying to sell itself as different from the Big Two.
 
Imagine, voting the way your constituents, that elected you, want you to. What a novel, democratic idea.
 
NavyShooter said:
Allow me to correct the last paragraph for you:

It is not important if these restrictions are practical or enforceable, or if they do not reduce the overall suicide rate, so long as they give the public a nice warm fuzzy feeling and politicians something to talk about in the media.

That sentiment was included in my previous sentence - "hugely symbolic and serve as a memorial" - paraphrasing the verbal garbage spewed by CGC as "justification" for this insanity. I didn't want to prattle on too much.
 
Loachman said:
Rope "kills" more people than those methods.

There is a much higher rate of suicide in homes where rope is present than in homes where no rope is present.

Rope over ninety-pound test should not be sold to people under eighteen, people under the care of a psychiatrist, or people taking anti-depressants, in lengths over two feet. Rope should not be sold in any colour other than its natural one, as coloured rope is more attractive and may encourage the sale of rope.

Of course, those people would simply double or triple this rope, and tie it into longer lengths as necessary, but such restrictions would be hugely symbolic and serve as a memorial to the thousands who have committed suicide by any method.

It is not important if these restrictions are practical or enforceable, or if they do not reduce the overall suicide rate, so long as they reduce the rate of rope deaths.

Just some stats on suicide and murder:

In 1998:

Total Suicide: 3, 699 (2, 925 males/ 774 females)

By strangulation, hanging and suffocation - 1434 ( 1,171 males/263 females)

Suicide by firearms and explosives - 818 (767 males/51 females)
                                      Handgun - 28 (24 males/4 females)
                                      Shotgun - 120 (117 males/ 3 females)
                                Hunting rifle - 83 (79 males/ 4 females)
                                Military rifle  - 1 male
                        Other/unspecified - 584 (544 male/ 40 female)

Total Murders: 467 (312 males/ 155 females)

Murder by firearms and explosives - 130 (101 males/29 females)
                                      Handgun - 7 (5 males/2 females)
                                      Shotgun - 6 (5 males/ 1 female)
                                Hunting rifle - 2 males
                                Military rifle  - 0
                        Other/unspecified - 94 (88 male/ 26 female)

Source: Causes of death - 1998. Statistics Canada

In 2008:

Total Suicide: 3, 605 (2,798 males / 807 females)

Hanging, strangulation and suffocation: 1,546 (Males 1,229 / Females 317)

Total suicide by firearms: 685

Intentional self-harm by handgun discharge: 16 males
Intentional self-harm by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge: 131 (Males 127 / Females 4)
Intentional self-harm by other and unspecified firearm discharge: 538 (Males 505 / Females 33)

Assault: 463 (Males 337 / Females 126)

Assault by handgun discharge: 7 (6 males / 1 females)
Assault by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge: 15 (Males 10 / 5 females)
Assault by other and unspecified firearm discharge: 134 (Males 110 / females 24)

Source: Causes of death - 2008. Statistics Canada.

Comments:
  • Suicides were down slightly in 2008 compared to 1998.
  • Suicides by strangulation/suffocation's were up in 2008.
  • Suicides by firearms in 2008 were down significantly.
  • Total murders in both years were almost the same.
  • Murders with firearms were up in 2008.
  • According to the stats, handguns, rifles, shotguns make up a small majority of the firearms used in either suicides/murders. The problem is that the majority of firearms in both suicides/murders are listed as "other/unspecified" which makes the actual breakdown analysis of firearms deaths pretty well impossible.
  • When I get chance I'll also look at suicides by other means to look at differences between the two years.




 
To reach your comments, you must correct your data for population growth.

!998: Pop. 29,565,000
2008: Pop. 32,400,000

So that would mean that the "total murders" are down significantly in 2008 vice 1998.
Similarly, "suicide by firearms" are wayyyy down in 2008.

That is why comparisons of this nature are always made on the basis of "event" per 10,000 or 100,000 people.
So in this case, murders were 1.6 per 100,000 in 98 and 1.43 per 100,000 in 08: a 10% reduction.


Just saying: It actually make your points even more dramatically. ;)
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
To reach your comments, you must correct your data for population growth.

!998: Pop. 29,565,000
2008: Pop. 32,400,000

So that would mean that the "total murders" are down significantly in 2008 vice 1998.
Similarly, "suicide by firearms" are wayyyy down in 2008.

That is why comparisons of this nature are always made on the basis of "event" per 10,000 or 100,000 people.
So in this case, murders were 1.6 per 100,000 in 98 and 1.43 per 100,000 in 08: a 10% reduction.


Just saying: It actually make your points even more dramatically. ;)

Great comment. Much appreciated. One other thing that has two be taken into consideration is that this is an comparison of just two years. Some times there are spikes or drops that can serious skew the numbers. A good analysis would have to take a look over several years and different years apart.  If I can get hold of data I may try to do a comparison.
 
.... a report/update, containing some interesting stats, from the Parliamentary Information and Research Service, shared for your perusal.

 
Australia looks to us for a change:

http://sortofpolitical.blogspot.com/2011/11/australias-billion-dollar-gun-registry.html

Australia's billion dollar gun registry proves useless...
Idiotic ideas about gun control certainly aren't unique to Canada, eh?

"From: wishlist-bounces@lists.internode.on.net On Behalf Of
wishlist@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: November-12-11 6:04 PM
To: Wishlist@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Wishlist] Media Release: Gun Registration a Billion Dollar Failure

The International Coalition for Women in Shooting and Hunting (WiSH) have issued the following release:
Media Release 13 November 2011
Australian Gun Registration a Billion Dollar Failure

Investigation by the Radio National 'Background Briefing' program has found
that Australia's mandatory gun registration scheme is riddled with
inaccuracies, and cannot be shown to have delivered any public health and
safety outcomes. The International Coalition for Women in Shooting and
Hunting (WiSH) say this is a sign that Australia should follow Canada's
lead, and abolish registration of rifles and shotguns. WiSH Chair, Dr Samara
McPhedran, said "There is not a shred of evidence that firearms registration
has prevented crime, and these latest revelations prove that the Australian
system has been nothing more than an expensive failure."


The estimated cost of maintaining lists of legally owned guns over the past
15 years ranges from $405 million to $1.5 billion. The error rate in the
registries is thought to be up to 80 percent, meaning up to eight out of
every 10 records held by firearms registries is inaccurate. "Politicians
should show some leadership and end this wasteful bureaucratic bungle. This
would free up at least $74 000 each day for improved social services,
healthcare, and policing," said Dr McPhedran. "Gun registration has not been
shown, anywhere in the world, to be an effective way to reduce crime. It
simply diverts resources away from where they are truly needed. This is why
Canada is currently getting rid of longarm registration, and why New Zealand
abandoned registration in the early 1980s. Those countries maintain sensible
licensing regimes similar to Australia's, but also recognise that wasting
money on firearms registration does not improve public health and safety."

Figures from the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) show that almost
all firearms used to commit homicide are unregistered, and the offenders
unlicensed. [my emphasis added] While legal firearm ownership continues to increase, firearm misuse has been declining steadily since the 1980s"
 
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111128/ndp-gun-attack-ad-on-conservatives-misfires-111128/

A provocative NDP billboard campaign attacking the Conservatives' decision to end the long-gun registry had to be changed at the last minute when it was revealed the ad targets the wrong gun.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111128/ndp-gun-attack-ad-on-conservatives-misfires-111128/#ixzz1f3PB5H2c

More on link. The comments seem to be in favour of scrapping the LGR as well, which is a little surprising..
 
Not really, firearm owners have discovered the power of social media and thanks to our numbers can influence it.
 
MPs mark École Polytechnique massacre – but Tories aren't welcome
jane taber OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Blog Posted on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Article Link

As women across Canada mark the 22nd anniversary of the massacre at Montreal’s École Polytechnique on Tuesday, Conservative women on Parliament Hill continue to work to scrap the long-gun registry that was created in response to those shootings.

That has people on the Hill so upset that government MPs have been purposely shut out from officially speaking at and attending an event on Parliament Hill to honour the 14 young women who were shot dead in 1989.

The two opposition leaders, Interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel and Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae, will be there to speak, as will Bloc Québécois MP Maria Mourani.

“Even as we mourn the 14 women killed at l’École Polytechnique, this government is taking the last remaining safeguard off the very weapon that murdered these women,” Ms. Turmel said. “The Conservatives are recklessly dismantling the only positive thing to come out of the tragic events of Dec. 6.”

The politicians will be joined by Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control, and Suzanne Laplante-Edward, whose daughter, Anne-Marie, was killed by gunman Marc Lepine.

“There’s nobody from the Conservatives, that’s for sure,” said Wendy Sol of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union, which is organizing a conference about violence against women Tuesday in Ottawa. About 400 participants from the conference are expected to march from the venue, an Ottawa hotel, to Parliament Hill for the commemoration.

They are to be joined by other pro-gun-registry demonstrators. Two family members of the victims will also be there.

“They [Conservative MPs] were deliberately not invited but they are certainly welcome to come and change their position,” Ms. Sol said.

The legislation to end the gun registry is expected to pass through the House to the Senate before the Christmas break.
More on link
 
I have never seen any evidence that the gun registry stopped a violent crime or prevented a murder, anywhere, ever.

The gun registry was an expensive exercise in making some people feel good, and also deamonizing a group of law abiding citizens, period.

Conservatives should be relieved they are not invited to such events and proud of removing resources from feel good projects.
 
milnews.ca said:
Will Quebec go the court route to get the info?  Stay tuned....

Apparently, yes they will (big shock there.....)

Quebec to sue feds to keep gun registry data

Quebec Public Security Minister Robert Dutil has confirmed the province will take legal action against the federal government to save data from the soon-to-be-abolished long-gun registry.

However, legal action cannot be launched until Bill C-19 to abolish the registry becomes law, likely in January.

Flanked by police officials and crime victim groups, Dutil told reporters assembled in Quebec City on Tuesday that legislation to abolish the registry and destroy its data goes against the wishes of most Quebecers.

The Conservatives have been working to get rid of the registry for years, saying it is ineffective and a waste of money.

Bill C-19 is making its way through Parliament and is expected to be passed without a hitch.

Quebec has been fighting to hang on to the data, but the federal government has refused to agree to the request.

Dutil said Quebec will take the federal government to court once the legislation has been passed and becomes law, but he refused to specify what kind of legal action that would be.

More at link

"We want to sue!"

"On what grounds?"

"We don't know, we'll make something up."

::)
 
Rifleman62 said:
Let Quebec have the info Quebec only. Send it to them in English.

So, you folks who are not in Quebec, suggest we who are, be exempt from federal law?  Deal!  ;D

But it sounds like you're suggesting that we Quebec gun owners should just deal with it as long as you don't have to.
 
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120105/mom-kills-intruder-after-911-says-do-what-you-have-to-do-120105/

While not exactly a gun control subject, I thought this was a good example of home defence.  I'm curious as to how these instances play out in Canada - I followed one case where the home owner was found not guilty, but was dragged through a manslaughter trial for his efforts to protect his home and person.
 
Infanteer said:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120105/mom-kills-intruder-after-911-says-do-what-you-have-to-do-120105/

While not exactly a gun control subject, I thought this was a good example of home defence.  I'm curious as to how these instances play out in Canada - I followed one case where the home owner was found not guilty, but was dragged through a manslaughter trial for his efforts to protect his home and person.

In Canada the police want you to either lock yourself in a room and wait for the them or run away in the case of a home invasion. If you were to defend yourself with deadly force you would be charged.
Even if not convicted you are on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of court costs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top