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The Great Gun Control Debate

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TCBF said:
it's cultural. IF you remove the statistics from the ten largest urban cores, you eliminate the inner city drug crime. Then their rates fall below ours.

darn those 10 cities eh!? Although would Columbine be considered a town unto itself? Or a suburb?

rw4th said:
I agree with a_majoor, the statistics you quote are vague and purposefully pejorative; please cite your sources. If we consider â Å“gun incidentsâ ? to mean anything involving a gun, then 4 for Canada is way to low a figure. I can think of 4 just incidents â Å“involving gunsâ ? just in Montreal in the past few years.

I believe it was incidents involving charges (or discharges as the case may be). I would agree with you on 4 being to small in many ways. My highschool had many people packing various hardware, although the use of such things was either never done (except the once) and was also never "bragged" about.

I'll find the stat in question tomorrow at work though.
 
The article speaks for itself

Disarming Facts
The road to bad laws is paved with good intentions.

By John R. Lott Jr.

The last ten days have seen three horrific multiple-victim public shootings: the Atlanta courthouse attack that left four murdered; the Wisconsin church shooting, where seven were murdered, and Monday's high-school shooting in Minnesota, where nine were murdered. What can be learned from these attacks? Some take the attacks as confirmation that guns should be completely banned from even courthouses, let alone schools and churches.

The lessons from the courthouse shooting are likely to be different from the other two attacks in that there were armed sheriff's deputies present. Even if civilian gun possession were banned at the courthouse, the officers still had guns. Not only did they fail to stop the attack, they even facilitated it, because the 200-pound former football linebacker who was facing trial for rape was able to take the gun.

Guns are most useful in stopping criminals at a distance. The threat of using the gun against a criminal can allow one to capture him, or at least can cause the criminal to break off his attack. Police have a much more difficult job than civilians. While civilians can use a gun to maximize the distance between themselves and criminals, police cannot be satisfied with simply brandishing a gun and watching the criminal run away. Their job requires physical contact, and when that happens, things can go badly wrong.

My own published research on criminals assaulting police shows that the more likely that an assault will be successful, the more likely criminals will be to make it. The major factor determining success is the relative strengths and sizes of the criminal and officer. In particular, when officer strength and size requirements are reduced because of affirmative action, each one-percent increase in the number of female officers increases the number of assaults on police by 15 to 19 percent. The Atlanta-courthouse shooting simply arose from such a case.

There is a broader lesson to learn from these attacks. All three attacks took place in areas where gun possession by those who did the attack as well as civilians generally was already banned â ” so-called "gun-free safe zones." Suppose you or your family are being stalked by a criminal who intends on harming you. Would you feel safer putting a sign in front of your home saying "This Home is a Gun-Free Zone"?

It is pretty obvious why we don't put these signs up. As with many other gun laws, law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, would obey the sign. Instead of creating a safe zone for victims, it leaves victims defenseless and creates a safe zone for those intent on causing harm.

A three-year prison term for violating a gun-free zone represents a real penalty for a law-abiding citizen. Adding three years to a criminal's sentence when he is probably already going to face multiple death penalties or life sentences for a murderous rampage is probably not going to be the penalty that stops the criminal from committing his crime.

Many Americans have learned this lesson the hard way. In 1985, just eight states had the most liberal right-to-carry laws â ” laws that automatically grant permits once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees and, when required, complete a training class. Today the total is 37 states. Bill Landes and I have examined all the multiple-victim public shootings with two or more victims in the United States from 1977 to 1999 and found that when states passed right-to-carry laws, these attacks fell by 60 percent. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on average by 78 percent.

No other gun-control law had any beneficial effect. Indeed, right-to-carry laws were the only policy that consistently reduced these attacks.

To the extent attacks still occurred in right-to-carry states, they overwhelmingly happened in the special places within those states where concealed handguns were banned. The impact of right-to-carry laws on multiple-victim public shootings is much larger than on other crimes, for a simple reason. Increasing the probability that someone will be able to protect themselves, increases deterrence. Even when any single person might have a small probability of having a concealed handgun, the probability that at least someone will is very high.

Unfortunately, the restrictive concealed-handgun law now in effect in Minnesota bans concealed handguns around schools and Wisconsin is one of four states that completely ban concealed handguns, let alone not allowing them in churches. (There was a guard at the Minnesota school and he was apparently the first person killed, but he was also apparently unarmed.) While permitted concealed handguns by civilians are banned in Georgia courthouses, it is not clear that the benefit is anywhere near as large as other places simply because you usually have armed law enforcement nearby. One possibility is to encourage prosecutors and others to carry concealed guns around courthouses.

These restrictions on guns in schools weren't always in place. Prior to the end of 1995 when the Safe School Zone Act was enacted, virtually all the states that allowed citizens, whether they be teacher or principles or parents, to carry concealed handguns let them carry them on school grounds. Even Minnesota used to allow this.

Some have expressed fears over letting concealed permit holders carry guns on school campuses, but over all the years that permitted guns were allowed on school property there is no evidence that these guns were used improperly or caused any accidents.

People's reaction to the horrific events displayed on TV such as the Minnesota attack are understandable, but the more than two million times each year that Americans use guns defensively are never discussed â ” even though this is five times as often as the 450,000 times that guns are used to commit crimes over the last couple of years. Seldom do cases make the news where public shootings are stopped or mothers use guns to prevent their children from being kidnapped. Few would know that a quarter of the public-school shootings were stopped by citizens with guns before uniformed police could arrive.

In an analysis that I did during 2001 of media coverage of guns, the morning and evening national-news broadcasts on the three main television networks carried almost 200,000 words on contemporaneous gun-crime stories. By comparison, not one segment featured a civilian using a gun to stop a crime. Newspapers are not much better.

Police are extremely important in deterring crime, but they almost always arrive after the crime has been committed. Annual surveys of crime victims in the United States continually show that, when confronted by a criminal, people are safest if they have a gun. Just as the threat of arrest and prison can deter criminals from committing a crime, so can the fact that victims can defend themselves.

Gun-control advocates conveniently ignore that the nations with the highest homicide rates have gun bans. Studies, such as one conducted recently by Jeff Miron at Boston University, which examined 44 countries, find that stricter gun-control laws tend to lead to higher homicide rates. Russia, which has banned guns since the Communist revolution, has had murder rates several times higher than that of the United States; even under the Communists, the Soviet Union's rate was much higher.

Good intentions don't necessarily make good laws. What counts is whether the laws ultimately save lives. Unfortunately, too many gun laws primarily disarm law-abiding citizens, not criminals.

â ” John Lott, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of The Bias Against Guns and More Guns, Less Crime.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200503230744.asp
 
That was the author's whos work I quoted a few pages back.
 
http://www.defianttribe.ca/index2.htm

Check out this website, then start practising showing people how tall the corn grows (the straight armed salute).

Tom
 
regarding your link TCBF,
This guy went about resolving the situation poorly. If he had followed the instructions given to him and the same thing happened, he would have a stronger argument. I'm also fairly sure that legal documents need to be in black pen, nothing in pencil (or anything that can be changed) holds up in a courtroom that well. Despite his intentions he hid a handgun, a very strictly controlled weapon in Canada already. That makes his life harder because it looks very bad.

edit to address proper person
 
I'm sceptical of some of these statistics guns, crime, and injury.   It has been "proven" in the US that legalizing the concealed carrying of firearms tends to decrease gun-crimes.   This is because criminals avoid using firearms because anybody around them could be armed and ready to shoot back.   However, this has been by comparing results in US states.   With no controlled boarders between states, weapons flow freely and easily between them and this means that a ban in one state does not reduce the availability of firearms to the lower class criminal.   However, by controlling the flow of fire arms across its boarders, a country can control the availability of firearms to criminals and thus decrease gun crimes by taking weapons off the street.   This has been seen is various countries despite the contrary results seen between US states.

The article refers to some countries with weapons bans having higher incidents of homicide.   Are there statistics to show which countries have effective means to curb illegal trafficking?   How have greater restrictions had an effect in the UK?

I'm not interested in a firearms ban, and I think firearms should be available for sport and as tools.   But I've got a few questions.   Is it possible to restrict the flow of weapons to criminals (to the point that the guy going to knock of 7eleven would never have the money to get an illegal firearm) in a society that allows firearms?   I think it is, but it means the law abiding citizens have to put up with things like registering firearms, being licensed for firearms, and meeting certain security criteria.   It also means a few growing pains to get to the end state.  

Another question; can we sufficiently secure our boarder so as to retard the supply of firearms that may be more freely available in the US?   I think we can, but we cannot do it effectively enough to make those firearms unattainable to criminals in Canada.   The Edmonton Journal reported that Roszko smuggled his assault rifle from the US.

So, whatever the end state is, we probably need a continental solution.
 
However, by controlling the flow of fire arms across its boarders, a country can control the availability of firearms to criminals and thus decrease gun crimes by taking weapons off the street.

Can a country (like Canada) control the flow of anything across its borders? We can't control drugs, we can't control people, and we can't control firearms.

The article refers to some countries with weapons bans having higher incidents of homicide.   Are there statistics to show which countries have effective means to curb illegal trafficking?

China, North Korea, and Cuba have effective means of curbing trafficking, but do you really want to live there? My point here being that any â Å“openâ ? society, like Canada considers itself, will not be able to curb the trafficking of anything to any significant degree.

Is it possible to restrict the flow of weapons to criminals (to the point that the guy going to knock of 7eleven would never have the money to get an illegal firearm) in a society that allows firearms?

It is possible to limit the flow of LEGAL firearms to criminals, we are doing that already, and we have been for 60 years.

Another question; can we sufficiently secure our boarder so as to retard the supply of firearms that may be more freely available in the US?   I think we can, but we cannot do it effectively enough to make those firearms unattainable to criminals in Canada.   The Edmonton Journal reported that Roszko smuggled his assault rifle from the US.

Canadians seem to have to have this misguided notion you can just go to Walmart and pick up automatic weapons in the US.   BTW â Å“Assault Rifleâ ? denotes a fully automatic weapon, is that really what he had? Terminology is most important when talking firearms legislation lest fall into the â Å“assault weaponâ ? and â Å“assault pistolâ ? trap.

So, whatever the end state is, we probably need a continental solution.

The solution is to empower citizens with the means and tools to defend themselves. No amount of banning and registration will reduce violent crime, it hasn't and it won't. The government needs to stop micromanaging our â Å“safetyâ ? and let people take responsibility for their selves. It's that simple, and that complex all at once.

You need to stop looking for that magic solution that will make you safer: it doesn't exist. The danger of violent crime is there and will always be there unless you start implanting emotional control chips in people's heads. All the bans, the registration, and the laws limit only those who are inclined to obey them and therefore provide nothing more then an illusion of safety. The people who don't realize this are the ones who wind up in the newspaper, as victims, with a caption that reads something like â Å“I didn't think it could happen to meâ ?, if they are still alive to tell the tale.

The only real safety you can achieve is self-reliance.
 
rw4th said:
The solution is to empower citizens with the means and tools to defend themselves.

You need to stop looking for that magic solution that will make you safer: it doesn't exist.

You do see the inherent hypocracy in thse two statements, right?  You espouse that in order to "solve" the problem, you offer the easy "empowering" the citizens, and then say there is no magical solution, while offering said empowerment as a magic solution...

That aside, how on earth can you contend that the American system functions better than our own, given the diversity in usage of firearms in crimes?  The american system just doesn't work.  Ours isn't perfect, no, but it seems to be functioning better than theirs.  (And no, I'm not talking the gun registry.  It doesn't count.)

T
 
You do see the inherent hypocracy in thse two statements, right?   You espouse that in order to "solve" the problem, you offer the easy "empowering" the citizens, and then say there is no magical solution, while offering said empowerment as a magic solution

Did you read my post at all? A â Å“magic solutionâ ? would be some magical law that immediately makes people safer and removes violent crime from society. That's what the anti-gun crowd is looking for and it doesn't exist. The effect of their actions is in fact the reverse of what they want to achieve: it makes us less safe, all the while giving us an illusion of more safety.

Empowering citizens is far from being a magical solution, in fact it would probably be the most difficult solution in our â Å“not my responsilityâ ? society, but at least is logically the only that's a step in the direction we actually wish to travel in.

That aside, how on earth can you contend that the American system functions better than our own, given the diversity in usage of firearms in crimes?   The american system just doesn't work.   Ours isn't perfect, no, but it seems to be functioning better than theirs.   (And no, I'm not talking the gun registry.   It doesn't count.)

What exactly do you mean by â Å“The American Systemâ ?? The one where CCW reduces violent crime? Or maybe how every area and city that bans firearms has a high violent crime rate?

To be honest I don't think our system is that bad either, the only problem I have with it is that it's ultimate goal is to ban all private firearms ownership in Canada; that is the only logical conclusion one can have when analyzing the stupid, harassment measures it imposes on lawful gun-owners.

Give me a program a reduces violent crime and I'll be behind it, I will not support a program who's only goal is to disarm all civilians.
 
 
The american system just doesn't work.  Ours isn't perfect, no, but it seems to be functioning better than theirs.  (And no, I'm not talking the gun registry.  It doesn't count.)

Our system was better than theirs well before the gun registry came into play.The National gun registry achieved two goals for the Liberals.It helped secured votes from the radical feminist minority,and it served as a tax grab to fill the Liberal coffers.

 
rw4th said:
Empowering citizens is far from being a magical solution, in fact it would probably be the most difficult solution in our â Å“not my responsilityâ ? society, but at least is logically the only that's a step in the direction we actually wish to travel in.

Perhaps I misunderstood...  By empowering the citizens, I assumed you were leaning towards the right to bear arms, as per US Constitution, and an increase of legal firearms in Canada.  I get the idea that we're both arguing the same side of the coin regardless.  ;)

I do agree that the gun registry isn't the way to go, but I don't believe that increasing the amount of legal weapons would do any good towards reducing gun crimes.

I may have to re-read the legislation regarding the NGR, but I don't recall its ultimate goal being the removal of all privately owned firearms...  Do you believe this is where it's headed?

T
 
Perhaps I misunderstood...  By empowering the citizens, I assumed you were leaning towards the right to bear arms, as per US Constitution, and an increase of legal firearms in Canada.

What I'm arguing for is that I should be able to purchase a firearm for self defense purposes. I'm also arguing for CCW in Canada. As for an increase in firearms ownership, well that's up to people to decide now isn't it?

I do agree that the gun registry isn't the way to go, but I don't believe that increasing the amount of legal weapons would do any good towards reducing gun crimes.

Please support that belief with facts. I think enough proof of the reverse has already been posted here. Remember, it's not about increasing the number of guns, it's about empowering those who wish to do so to use them for self-defense. You do realize that self-defense is essentially illegal in Canada right? You also realize that the problem is "violent crime", not "gun crime" right?

Here's an exercise for you: right down all your beliefs about guns and gun laws and then try to find evidence for and against them, then post you findings here. I think you will find the facts go against what the liberals have indoctrinated the population to believe is â Å“common senseâ ? about guns and gun ownership.
 
I may have to re-read the legislation regarding the NGR, but I don't recall its ultimate goal being the removal of all privately owned firearms...  Do you believe this is where it's headed?

Absolutely!A logical step forward in a Socialist Dictatorship would be to remove any means for dissent,so as to establish Authoritarian control over the population.
Incidents like the Mayorthorpe shootings provide plenty of ammo for vocal anti-gun groups and the Liberal media to call for even tighter gun control.in reality incidents such as the RCMP shootings provide evidence that the NGR has accomplised squat,but Left wing activists have a knack for manipulation of the truth to suit their own agenda.

 
Criminal Code: Part 1 Section 34 (1)
Self-defence against unprovoked assault 34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.
Extent of justification (2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if
(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and
(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm.

   I'm remaining neutral on the debate. I enjoy reading the various opinions and will provide some clarity when appropriate. For instance, I have been training civillians in Canada to carry handguns for "the protection of life" for 15 years. My certification gets them a permit from their CPFO to do so, under very specific conditions of-course and directly related to their occupations, bank guards etc. Numbers? Over 2500 personally, 13,000 within my previous organization alone. ( Including annual refresher training)

   The mechanisms within the law for CCW's already exist, in fact are in use, again under very limited circumstances. The various regulatory bodies have the power to decide where they are applicable. The only way to challenge this status quo would be through the court system. No political will exists to change where we are at now.

Stay Safe
 
rw4th said:
What I'm arguing for is that I should be able to purchase a firearm for self defense purposes.

While I might not have a problem with YOU having firearms, even for self-defence, I don't want the average Canadian yahoo to have that right.

rw4th said:
I'm also arguing for CCW in Canada.

Again, for you, maybe, but not the average wacko gun-nut in Canada, like the clowny in the link earlier.

rw4th said:
Please support that belief with facts. I think enough proof of the reverse has already been posted here.

I agree, but common sense supercedes data, in this case. If you allow most Canadians to arm themselves for SD purposes, including CCW, some of the people you arm will be dangerously irresponsible or just plain nuts.

rw4th said:
You also realize that the problem is "violent crime", not "gun crime" right?

I completely agree. Although it's a cliche, it's accurate: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I don't want to make it legal for those 'people' to arm themselves with concealed handguns or assault rifles.
LowRider said:
in reality incidents such as the RCMP shootings provide evidence that the NGR has accomplised squat,but Left wing activists have a knack for manipulation of the truth to suit their own agenda.

No argument here. I don't have a objection to a registry in general, but I have huge problems with the current one.





 
Caesar said:
No argument here. I don't have a objection to a registry in general, but I have huge problems with the current one.

I couldn't agree more - and I was involved in setting up the current system. (before you all flay me alive, note that I did NOT say that I set it up... I was a consultant, and our advice was tossed...)
 
The problem with these uber-threads that we create is that the threads themselves are so long that nobody goes back to read the previous pages, when an issue may have been dealt with or excellent source material may have been presented.  Anyways, I dredged up my previous information from 6 or so pages ago - which I hope addresses two lines of arguement that I've seen on this thread (that guns are responsible for crime and that arming people means more risk to society):

"Many social scientists say that murder happens for a structural reason: easy access to easy-to-use weapons.  Many people also blame firearms for emotional reasons....

But weapons, it turns out, have less to do with murder than do the attitudes of people, and their system of justice, in accepting or rejecting murder.  The National Academy of Sciences concluded, "Available research does not demonstrate that greater gun availability is linked to greater numbers of violent events or injuries".  Rates of murder depend not on numbers of guns, but on who possesses them.  To reduce murder, the National Academy's Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behaviour recommended that "existing laws governing the purchase, ownership, and use of firearms" be enforced.

More data separating guns from murder rates come from Robert J Mundt's study of homicide rates in twenty-five U.S. cities versus twenty-five similar-size Canadian cities.  It revealed that among non-Hispanic Caucasians, murder rates were the same, despite the availability of handguns in the United States versus their longtime ban in Canada.

A classic demonstration that ready availability of guns does not, in itself, raise murder rates is a comparison of Switzerland, Japan, and England.  Every able-bodied Swiss man is required to keep at home, for life, a fully automatic rifle or pistol plus ammunition.  Yet among 6 million people privately owning 600,000 assault rifles, half a million pistols, and thousands of other guns, murders are extremely rare.  Even gun suicides are low.  Japan, with no guns, and Switzerland, which is heavily armed, have identical murder rates, 1.20 and 1.23 homicides per 100,000, respectively (less than half of the Swiss murders were shootings).  England's homicide rate, also with most guns banned, was 1.35 per 100,000.  In short, both in America and internationally, the presence of guns does not correlate with the murder rates....

When I started work on this book, I held the opinion that laws restricting handgun ownership were vital to curbing murder in America.  It only makes sense, doesn't it?  Not when one knows how men who decide to murder think."

Michael P. Ghiglieri, The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence; pp 119-121.

The notion that banning firearms from the public begins to fade when held up to objective facts.

The murder rate of the United States in 1996: - 7.4/100,000 people.

Higher then other states, which had no guns or had more guns per capita, but as the research points out, the violence was not a general trend but rather concentrated in certain violent sub-cultures - eg. murder Rate of Juvenile US Gang Members (ages under 18 and of all ethnic groups) - 463/100,000.

The most violent society (measured) on Earth?  The Gebusi Tribe of remote New Guinea at an average of 568/100,000 people.  And I imagine that is because they all had access to assault rifles [or concealed handguns], right?

"Economist John R Lott Jr., surveyed the data on guns and murder from several recent years.  He focused on the thirty-one states that have nondiscretionary (also known as "shall-issue") concealed carry weapons (CCW) laws.  These states issue to any nonfelon who passes their safety and legal tests a license to carry a concealed handgun.  Hundreds of thousands of Americans now legally carry concealed weapons on this basis.  Lott examined the records of fifty-four thousand such licences from 1977 to 1994 and analyzed dozens of variables relating to violent crime.  He intended his research to answer the question,"Does allowing people to own or carry guns deter violent crime?  Or dies it simply cause more citizens to harm each other?"  The title of his book, More Guns, Less Crime. may seem to provide the answer, but that would oversimplify the issue.

Lott found that, contrary to popular notions, even after more than a decade, no CCW permit holder had been convicted of having used her or his gun to murder anyone.  Instead, many permit-holding women escaped being murdered (or raped) because of the use of their guns.  For example, women who did not resist violent aggressors were injured 2.5 times more than women who used guns to resist them.  Further, resistance with a gun led to women being seriously injured only one-quarter as often as did resistance without a gun.  Polls reveal that Americans defend themselves with guns between 760,000 and 3.6 million times yearly!  These figures coincide with a much broader study by Gary Kleck, a professor of criminology who also spent several years researching the effects of guns on enhancing versus preventing violence.

In his book Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, Kleck reports that private citizens in America use guns 783,000 times (handguns 645,000 times) yearly to protect themselves from felonious assaults.  That breaks down to once every 48 seconds.  Meanwhile, criminals use guns against victims 660,000 times yearly.  One-third of randomly polled Americans considered citizens armed with guns to be the best defense against criminals.  Roughly half of all gun owners said that their firearms were primarily for protection.  Indeed, the FBI reports between 1992 and 1996, private citizens shot and killed 1,382 violent offenders, a total close to (68 percent of) the 2,035 felons shot by police, to protect themselves.  What do police think of this?  Lott cites two major polls showing that more than 93 percent of responding police officers consider private ownership of firearms necessary for the average citizen to protect himself or herself.

Surprisingly, there exists a huge difference in risk to bystanders depending on whether a police officer or a private citzen discharges his or her firearm in self-defense against a felonious assault.  Carol Ruth Silver and Donald B Kates Jr., found that police shooting at suspects were 5.5 times MORE likely than private citizens to shoot an innocent bystander.  By contrast, only about 28 mistaken intruders are shot per year.  Many of these shootings result when a gun owner keeps a firearm net to the bed and fires before waking up fully.

Lot explains what the ability to protect oneself means in regard to murder:
"Violent crimes are 81 percent higher in states without nondiscretionary laws.  For murder, states that ban the concealed carrying of guns have murder rates 127 percent higher than states with the most liberal concealed carry laws.
Overall, my conclusion is that criminals as a group tend to behave rationally - when crime becomes more difficult, less crime is committed....
Guns also appear to be the great equalizer among the sexes.  Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but the effect is especially pronounced for women.  One additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about 3-4 times more than one additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for men."


Lott reports that studies showing that guns kept in the home lead to more homicides than would otherwise occur were flawed (or fudged).  Instead, Lott concludes, a 1 percent increase in gun ownership correlates with a 4.1 percent drop in violent crime.  He notes that "the passage of nondiscretionary concealed handgun laws in states that did not have them in 1992 would have reduced murder in that year by 1,839; rapes by 3,727; aggravated assaults by 10,900; robberies by 61,064....The total value of this reduction in crime in 1992 dollars would have been $7.6 billion." (Lott also notes that this decline would have been at the cost of perhaps nine additional accidental deaths in all concealed handgun states.)  Ultimately, Lott was able to answer - and to successfully defend his answer scientifically against critics - the question his research originally asked.  "Will allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns save lives?  The answer is yes, it will."

Michael Ghiglieri, The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence: pp 121-123.

Read the above and come to your own conclusions....
 
Caesar said:
While I might not have a problem with YOU having firearms, even for self-defence, I don't want the average Canadian yahoo to have that right.

Well, geez Caesar - who gets defined as a Yahoo in your books.   When we start applying and denying rights in the country based on your perception of a "yahoo", things should turn out alright, I guess....

Your setting up a strawman argument if you think that Carry-permits are given to anyone off the street in the States.   As far as I can tell, they have to go through a vetting process, just as we do in Canada to acquire a ownership and acquisition certificate (and which nobody is arguing against).

I agree, but common sense supercedes data, in this case. If you allow most Canadians to arm themselves for SD purposes, including CCW, some of the people you arm will be dangerously irresponsible or just plain nuts.

What are you talking about?   Common sense supercedes data?   Give your head a shake.   If law-abiding Canadians, who've proven through a vetting process that they can responsibly carry a firearm, are given access to such a permit, then dangerous criminals will get guns this way as well?   If you haven't realized it, Rosko in Mayerthorpe (or the countless other criminals who've used firearms) didn't exactly get them through legal means.

I completely agree. Although it's a cliche, it's accurate: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I don't want to make it legal for those 'people' to arm themselves with concealed handguns or assault rifles.

See the data I've provided above - Switzerland arms every male with a handgun and an assault rifle and they have lower levels of violent crime then us or the US.   If "those people" (I am assuming you mean criminals) want to arm themselves to commit a crime, taking a gun off of an armed citizen is probably the last place they'd look - they can easily go to the black market or get them through other illegal means.

I'll come down on rw4th side and agree that it is up to the individual to secure himself against the acts of others - the police are only a reactionary element (they arrest people after they've committed a crime) and their limited numbers (combined with a weak Justice system) reduces their value as a general deterrence.   When it comes to defending yourself, your family, or your property, you have only yourself to rely on.

Caesar, you're from BC - I guarantee you that the home-invasion problem that was rampant a while back would have been much less of a problem if the thieves knew there was a good chance of getting two to the center-of-mass.   Criminals, for the most part, are rational; they don't commit crimes unless they are confident that they can get away with them.   The data I posted above clearly backs this claim up.

As for the loonies, they are going to get their weapons regardless of the legislation we enact.   Perhaps if law-abiding citizens are in a better position to defend themselves, the violence of these people will be limited - how to you think Columbine, the school shooting in Australia, or the latest shooting in Minnesota would have turned out if someone in the school was armed and prepared to defend the children against a psycho hellbent on going out causing the most carnage possible.
 
Infanteer, good posts. Is there some Canadian data you could direct me towards? And this is not indicative of my personal thoughts, but do you feel it necessary to have a CCW in Canada?
 
www.guncontrol.ca

www.nfa.ca

two sides of the coin, a lot of info

Stay Safe
 
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