The John10 Show

[Haligonian]

Very interesting.  Goes to show that even secretive units need to have a level of transparency in certain areas if they want to continue to operate with the consent of the public.  This could turn into a dog's breakfast if enough people caught on to it.

Now that the member is no longer in JTF 2 secrecy for his identity shouldn't be an issue though.

 

[toughenough]

A senior Canadian commando who choked and "almost killed" a subordinate
.....
Day wrote that the choking attack carried on for about 45 seconds.
.....
continued to choke his subordinate even when the master corporal was trying to cry "uncle" by slapping the ground.

These "facts" do not add up. I suspect a large degree of sensationalism being made here.

One does not choke someone for 45 seconds while the person remains conscious and attempts to tap out. If a choke is properly applied, it will take less then ten seconds for the person to go unconscious, depending on their heart rate. After the person goes out, this is when you're entering dangerous territory and continuing to hold the choke can lead to permanent damage or death.

So to recap:
-The MCpl was likely no where near death.
-The MCpl does not appear to have lost consciousness.
-A choke/strangle was not held for 45 seconds. Pressure to the neck perhaps, but not a choke.

Perhaps the CF didn't want to admit that a member of the ski team didn't know how to properly apply a rear naked choke, and therefore covered it up in court? Or maybe they figured he didn't strike a member, no one lost consciousness, no damage was done, and therefore there's no charge, or such a light one that it'd be a waste of everyone's time? Who knows. I just know that this article cannot be completely accurate.

 

[PanaEng]

These "facts" do not add up. I suspect a large degree of sensationalism being made here.

One does not choke someone for 45 seconds while the person remains conscious and attempts to tap out. If a choke is properly applied, it will take less then ten seconds for the person to go unconscious, depending on their heart rate. After the person goes out, this is when you're entering dangerous territory and continuing to hold the choke can lead to permanent damage or death.

So to recap:
-The MCpl was likely no where near death.
-The MCpl does not appear to have lost consciousness.
-A choke/strangle was not held for 45 seconds. Pressure to the neck perhaps, but not a choke.

Perhaps the CF didn't want to admit that a member of the ski team didn't know how to properly apply a rear naked choke, and therefore covered it up in court? Or maybe they figured he didn't strike a member, no one lost consciousness, no damage was done, and therefore there's no charge, or such a light one that it'd be a waste of everyone's time? Who knows. I just know that this article cannot be completely accurate.

you're quibbling over semantics that are pretty much irrelevant and making assumptions that do not follow from what the article said. And he confessed and agreed over the findings.
Are you the WO in question? 
Anyway, the real problem is that proper proceedings could not take place due to all the legal haggling that went on. Part of the problem is the protection of identity of the witnesses and that not enough legal "caveats" exist  for handling secrecy issues with the military legal system (or the civilian criminal system as demonstrated by the security certificate issues, air india, etc.)
Admin measures were taken though.

cheers,
Frank

 

[OldSolduer]

If it was applied properly, it is not a "choke" at all - it is a carotid control hold which can render you unconscious in 10-15 seconds.
Regardless, a WO assaulted a subordinate. He should have been tried before a court martial. I wonder if he was the one that had the BFA on his weapon with live rounds loaded in the mag?

 

[Danjanou]

Before this thread potentially goes south a little preemptive moderation here.

1-While commentary and reasonable speculation are allowed and even encouraged on the site, lets try and stay in our lanes here.

2- No names unless already released by the CF and/or media. Lets be cognizant of OPSEC, PERSEC and that "innocent until proven guilty" thing at all times.

3- As this issue may (will) attract some media attention and that often includes the MSM coming here for sound bites, quotes etc. Lets' think before hitting post.

Thankyou for your cooperation in this matter.

STAFF

 

[shreenan]

:camo: Ct-tSOR Canada's top-tier special operations regiment

 

[RCDtpr]

The guy was kicked out of the unit.  Lets say he was punted in 2008 which is the last date the article stated.......the lost salary over the course of these last 4 years is well into the 10's of thousands of dollars if he went back to a non-spec trade.

That's a pretty big punishment in itself....

 

[Journeyman]

:camo: Ct-tSOR Canada's top-tier special operations regiment

  ???  Was this supposed to be contributing anything to the thread?

 

[Danjanou]

  ???  Was this supposed to be contributing anything to the thread?

Apparently not which is why he's been asked to explain it before I bin it.

RCDCpl, we're approaching hearsay with that and as I noted earlier this thread will be closely monitored .

 

[RCDtpr]

Apparently not which is why he's been asked to explain it before I bin it.

RCDCpl, we're approaching hearsay with that and as I noted earlier this thread will be closely monitored .

I'm not very tech savvy so I can't figure out how to cut an paste the particular part I'm quoting so I'll retype.

"As a result of this incident, the Chain of Command lost confidence in the individual and he was removed from employment with the unit and has not served in JTF2 again," Villeneuve said.

Not really sure how what I posted is hearsay....if the WO in question was removed from the unit as the article states.....then he has in fact taken a rather large financial hit considering what an assaulter makes after allowances, TD etc etc.

 

[Danjanou]

RCDCpl Thanks for clarifying that. As I said my concern here is that stuff doesn't end up out of context on the CBC or in the Toronto Star along the lines of  "..... as reported over on army.ca....."

 

[cupper]

Thanks for the response FJAG. I understand that the best you could do was speak to general principles not knowing the real reasons behind the decision.

Milpoints inbound.

 

[john10]

Before this thread potentially goes south a little preemptive moderation here.

1-While commentary and reasonable speculation are allowed and even encouraged on the site, lets try and stay in our lanes here.

2- No names unless already released by the CF and/or media. Lets be cognizant of OPSEC, PERSEC and that "innocent until proven guilty" thing at all times.

3- As this issue may (will) attract some media attention and that often includes the MSM coming here for sound bites, quotes etc. Lets' think before hitting post.

Thankyou for your cooperation in this matter.

STAFF

Good guidelines. I'm curious however, do you have specific examples of the media using quotes from this forum?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Good guidelines. I'm curious however, do you have specific examples of the media using quotes from this forum?

Yes we do,

You are more than welcome to search the forums for that evidence.

Let us know, what you find.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

 

[john10]

Yes we do,

You are more than welcome to search the forums for that evidence.

Let us know, what you find.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

Would you care to provide an example?

Also, I sense some silly passive-agressiveness in your post. Is there a reason for it? Disregard that bit if I'm mistaken.

 

[Good2Golf]

John10, numerous occurrences of mainstream media referring to posters on Army.ca -- 48th merely reinforced a previous post.  Just because you say "care to provide an example" and 48th Highlander or anyone else doesn't feel like doing work to satisfy YoUR curiosity doesn't mean the references disn't happen, nor does it mean that people are being passive-aggressive. You can label me as such as well, but mind if I ask why you don't want to make the effort to search Canadian media stories for references to material quoted from Army.ca?

Regards
G2G

 

[john10]

John10, numerous occurrences of mainstream media referring to posters on Army.ca -- 48th merely reinforced a previous post.  Just because you say "care to provide an example" and 48th Highlander or anyone else doesn't feel like doing work to satisfy YoUR curiosity doesn't mean the references disn't happen, nor does it mean that people are being passive-aggressive. You can label me as such as well, but mind if I ask why you don't want to make the effort to search Canadian media stories for references to material quoted from Army.ca?

Regards
G2G

Hi G2G,
I didn't say it didn't happen, I simply asked if an example came to mind. Why are you guys so sensitive and defensive?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Would you care to provide an example?

Also, I sense some silly passive-agressiveness in your post. Is there a reason for it? Disregard that bit if I'm mistaken.

You are asking staff provide examples, as though you are questioning him.

I sense you are constipated, but that is neither here nor there. However,  based on your question, and knowing how busy staff can be,  I turned the tables back on you to do the search.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

 

[john10]

You are asking staff provide examples, as though you are questioning him.

I sense you are constipated, but that is neither here nor there. However,  based on your question, and knowing how busy staff can be,  I turned the tables back on you to do the search.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

I simply asked if he had specific examples. No one was forced to do anything.

This hypersensitive whiny passive-agressive nonsense is so over the top. Is this how you guys speak to your colleagues?

 

[the 48th regulator]

I simply asked if he had specific examples. No one was forced to do anything.

This hypersensitive whiny passive-agressive nonsense is so over the top. Is this how you guys speak to your colleagues?

You are not my colleague, and you can  goad me all you want, I won't fall for it. 

Here you go pal, a video just for you.

http://youtu.be/FMEe7JqBgvg

dileas

tess