The Khadr Thread

[Infanteer]

First off, I peeing in a room corner and having no bed doesn't seem like the abject torture that seems to be indicated.

Second, he claims he went to Afghanistan to study Islam?  That would be like me going to Sudan to study basketweaving or something.  Sounds fishy to me, and this guy was probably stuck there for good reason.

 

[winchable]

It's not entirely far fetchedthat he might go to Afghanistan to study Islam.
For many, going to Saudi Arabia is very pricey.
Afghanistan would have been an inexpensive way to study at an Arabian madrassa....economy class If you will.

But As you said Inf. those are hardly "A catalogue of Abuses"
I suppose to someone who isn't of that breed might find them somewhat horrific, and the whole Kafka-esque nature of his detention might give him a very genuine basis for his claim.

(was that good use of the term kafka-esque?)

 

[big bad john]

Excellent Che!

 

[Island Ryhno]

These are different situations big bad john, perhaps someone does owe this guy an apology. The Khadr kid was killing american soldiers, caught with the blood of a soldier on him. When a wide net is cast, sometimes innocents get caught in that net. The unfortunate part about terrorism is that the net has to be so wide as to entrap a whole religious belief. Unfortunate incident on the brits case IF it is true. Khadr is getting better than he deserves.

 

[big bad john]

I am not defending any of them.  I just threw it out there for discusion.  Stir the pot and get the old grey matter working so to speak.

 

[big bad john]

07:30   13 February 2005

Freed Australia Terror Suspect Says He Was Tortured

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian former Guantanamo Bay detainee Mamdouh Habib said on Sunday he was beaten and subjected to electric shock torture in Pakistan and Egypt and degraded by U.S. forces in Cuba during his almost three years in detention.
Speaking for the first time since his release in January from Guantanamo Bay, Habib told Australia's 60 Minutes television program he was beaten by U.S. and Pakistani forces and tortured with electric shocks after his 2001 detention in Pakistan.

"They take me in a jail and they have a concrete wall and wire inside and they lift me up. They put electric shock on it and make me run," Habib said.
Habib was held on suspicion he helped Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s militant al Qaeda network after being arrested crossing from Pakistan into Afghanistan (news - web sites) three weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.
But the United States failed to find enough evidence to charge Habib and he arrived back in Sydney on January 28.
Habib said an unnamed Australian government official had witnessed him being tortured in a Pakistani military airport and again in Egypt. "He seen me tortured in the airport," an emotional Habib said in the television interview.

Australia says it has no evidence Habib was tortured or abused during his detention.
Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said on Sunday that Habib's passport had been canceled as the country's secret service, the Australian Secret Intelligence Organization (ASIO), had security concerns about him.

"ASIO have great concerns about him. They have great concerns about his alleged involvement with al-Qaeda," Downer said.

Habib said that during a three week detention in Pakistan, 15 Americans and four Pakistanis beat him and stripped him naked, and photographed and videotaped him.

He said while naked a dog was brought up behind him and he was told that the dog had been trained to have sex with people.
"The dog was behind me all the time, but it doesn't do anything to me --just scare me," Habib said.
Photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq (news - web sites) shocked the world when published in 2004.

Eight U.S. soldiers were implicated in the prisoner abuse, several have been court marshaled and one ringleader sentenced to 10 years jail.
Habib said he was flown from Pakistan to Egypt, where he was tortured daily during his six month detention there before being moved to Guantanamo Bay. He said he was again subjected to electric shock, and also drugs, while in Egyptian detention.

Habib said he falsely confessed under torture in Egypt to being involved with al Qaeda and prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

"I said yes. Nothing was true. I make them happy. I want to save myself," he said. Habib said he had never been to an al Qaeda training camp as alleged by U.S. authorities. Habib said he was in Pakistan in 2001 looking for a school and college for his children and for business opportunities because he wanted to leave Australia as he was being harassed by the country's secret service.

Habib refused to say why he was in Afghanistan or who funded his trip.
Habib said when he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay, where he was held for more than two years, he was subjected to inhumane and degrading treatment by U.S. authorities.
"They use everything possible to make me crazy," Habib said.
"They put me in isolation all the time. I never see the sun. I never have shower like a human being. I never treated like a human being," he said.
"No one should be treated in the way they are treated in Cuba. The Americans, how they are treating people, they are terrorists. They have no humanity." The United States has said it believes Guantanamo detainees are treated humanely.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

On the other side of the coin....


Australian terror suspect allegedly had multiple meetings with Osama

Date: 10 February 2005 1531 hrs (SST)

URL: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/131813/1/.html

SYDNEY : A detained Australian terrorist suspect had multiple meetings with Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden before returning home as a "sleeper" agent for the radical Islamic group, prosecutors alleged.

Lawyers for the suspect, Jack Thomas, went before a Melbourne court to make their third bail for application for their client, who was arrested in November and has since been held in a maximum security prison.

Prosecutors told the court that Thomas, a 31-year-old convert to Islam, met Osama on more than one occasion while training at an Al-Qaeda camp in Pakistan.

They alleged that Thomas continued to associate with people linked to Al-Qaeda after the group carried out the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

He was allegedly approached by one Al-Qaeda member on behalf of bin Laden to return home to Australia and act as a "sleeper" for the organisation, the court heard.

Thomas, who at one point officially changed his name to Jihad - struggle or Holy War in Arabic - is charged with three offences including receiving money from, and providing support for Al-Qaeda when he was living in Pakistan in 2002 and 2003.

Magistrate Ian Gray said he would consider Thomas' bail application and announce his decision at a later time.

Thomas last applied for bail in December on the grounds that an Australian Federal Police interview that led to the charges against him breached the rules of evidence because it was conducted when Thomas was in custody in Pakistan with no access to a lawyer.

That application and an earlier one were both rejected.

His lawyer, Rob Stary, said before the hearing that Thomas was increasingly distressed by the conditions of his detention in the maximum security Barwon Prison, where he is in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and has no contact with other inmates.

"He is terribly distressed and I think his mental state is completely fragile," he said.

His mother, Patsy Thomas, said her son's imprisonment was emotionally draining for the whole family.

"Not to be able to touch him and cuddle your child and to not be able to touch and cuddle his children is heartbreaking - we feel it," she told ABC radio earlier Thursday.

"One hour a month Jack is allowed to have contact with his two little girls," she said.

"The rest of the time he only sees them on the other side of the glass with us (for) one hour a week." - AFP

 

[big bad john]

todays Ottawa Citizen:

Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
U.S. stymies request for information about fate of Afghans caught in raids
 
a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen


February 14, 2005


1 | 2 | 3 | NEXT >>

CREDIT: Andres Leighton, The Associated Press
Detainees are shown in their cells facing Mecca during evening prayers in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in this 2002 photo. Canada has an obligation under the law of armed conflict to track the detainees its troops captured even after they are handed over to another country. However, U.S. officials have repeatedly refused to provide details on Guantanamo prisoners.






Individuals captured in Afghanistan by Canadian special forces were transported to the controversial U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, but American officials have been reluctant to provide the government with information on what has happened to the captives.

Members of the Ottawa-based Joint Task Force 2 commando unit took at least three prisoners in January 2002 and another four during a raid several months later. But attempts by Canadian officers to find out what happened to the people appear to have been stymied by the U.S.

Canadian officials were told that once the captives were transferred to the American detention centre at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the U.S. would then decide whether to release them or to continue holding them. At least three of the captives taken in the January 2002 JTF2 raid ended up in Guantanamo Bay, according to records obtained by the Citizen under the Access to Information law. It is not known whether they are still being held there.

American officials also declined to provide further details to the Canadian Forces about what happened to four individuals JTF2 turned over to the U.S after the May 2002 raid.

The U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay has been steeped in controversy since its establishment shortly after the Afghanistan war began. At the time Canadian government officials said they were confident any prisoners turned over to the U.S. would be treated properly by American authorities.

But since then there has been a steady stream of accusations of torture and sexual harassment of the prisoners, all denied by the Pentagon. The latest allegations involve Canadian teenager Omar Khadr, captured by American forces and accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan.

FBI agents working at Guantanamo Bay have also raised concerns that support some of the prisoners' allegations about abuse.

Those concerns, made public in December, were contained in e-mails obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit against the U.S. government. Recently a U.S. translator assigned to Guantanamo Bay also emerged with similar stories of abuse.

Asked over a two-day period last week for information on what became of the Canadians' prisoners, Defence Department officials said they did not readily have such details. Numbers of prisoners taken by Canadian troops in Afghanistan were also not readily available, Canadian Forces officials said.

In August 2003, a Canadian military intelligence officer reminded colleagues that Canada had an obligation under the law of armed conflict, as well as a national obligation, to track the detainees its troops captured even after they were handed over to another country.

However, right from the moment JTF2 turned over prisoners to the Americans in January 2002, Canadian military officials ran into problems finding out what happened to the captives. On Jan. 29, 2002, then-Commodore Jean-Yves Forcier wrote Canadian officers tried to check on the status and well-being of the prisoners. "U.S. authorities have maintained the position that they will not necessarily provide a status update concerning the detainees in question," he wrote.

Commodore J.P. Thiffault informed Vice-Admiral Greg Madison's office on Feb. 8, 2002 the Americans "could not advise on the future prospect of the detainees because a determination had yet to be finalized and will not be finalized until transferred to GTMO." GTMO refers to Guantanamo Bay.

Prisoners who were transferred by the U.S. to Guantanamo Bay were hooded, chained and sedated, prompting human rights groups to allege such methods were against the Geneva Convention.

In April 2002, then-defence minister Art Eggleton reassured the International Red Cross Canada remained concerned about the care and treatment of those captured and transferred into the U.S. system.

But when Canadian officials tried to find out what happened to the four people turned over by JTF2 to the Americans after a May 2002 raid on the village of Band Taimore, they were told the U.S would not provide further details. When Mr. Eggleton's successor, John McCallum, tried to find out that September what happened to prisoners, he was also unsuccessful. He was told by his senior military officials that "details on the captured individuals are sketchy at this time."

That joint U.S.-Canadian raid is still controversial because a 70-year-old man and a three-year-girl were killed in the operation. Canadian Forces officials stress JTF2 had left the compound before the killings took place. Canadian military reports indicate the elderly Afghan man was in U.S. custody and died after being struck in the head by a U.S. soldier's rifle butt. The girl's body was discovered after the raid at the bottom of the village well. It is believed she fell down the well in the confusion of the night-time special forces strike.

The Canadian reports note while any prisoners were in Canadian custody they were handled properly.

The Pentagon has stated it will not apply the Geneva Convention to prisoners turned over to their forces, but will treat such individuals humanely.

Canadian military police did make one trip to the U.S. "enemy prisoner of war" facility located at Kandahar airfield. According to police that facility was also visited by the International Red Cross. While the facility was austere, the police determined detainees were being properly treated at the time.

But human rights agencies note a number of Afghans have died while in U.S. custody in Afghanistan. Two of those have been classified by U.S. military pathologists as homicides. The third is still under investigation.

Canadian Forces officers were also sensitive concerning the language used to describe its prisoners in official reports. In a report from the Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Ray Henault, the term "persons are captured" was changed to "persons have been taken under custody" before the documents were sent on to the defence minister.

More than 500 people from 40 nations are being detained at Guantanamo Bay. It is unknown how many were captured by Canadian troops. A number have been at the prison for more than three years with no charges laid against them. They have also been denied legal representation. Another 208 prisoners have been released. Of those 62 were transferred to the custody of their home countries.

Last week lawyers for Canadian citizen Omar Khadr alleged at Guantanamo Bay he was drugged, threatened with sexual attack and repeatedly chained in stressful positions.

Mr. Khadr, now 18, has been in Guantanamo for the past 2 1/2 years. His family once lived with Osama bin Laden.

His lawyers allege the federal government failed to protect the Canadian citizen from torture. But Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, has said the Canadian government was given assurances by the U.S. Mr. Khadr is being treated in a humane way and the government takes the Americans at their word.

According to the FBI e-mails released in December by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Guantanamo prisoners were chained to the floor for 24 hours at a time. No food or water was provided and prisoners were allowed to defecate on themselves.

FBI officers also complained guards used snarling dogs to intimidate prisoners, a tactic the Pentagon had previously denied was being used.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

 

[a_majoor]

I think a summary is in order here.

1. The people being detained are not soldiers or combattents in any sense of the word according to the Geneva convention or the laws of war. Even under the Laws of War, it is acceptable to incarcerate them until the end of hostilities.

2. The allegations of torture are just that; allegations.

3. The prime source of these allegations are lawyers representing these people, or released prisoners who want to launch multi million dollar lawsuits.

4. The descriptions of most of these alleged torture sessions in the hands of American authorities sounds about as intimidating as a day in Cornwallis (for those of us who remember that far back). We routinely accept much harder conditions when doing arctic warfare training or living in the improvised "bases" on tour (although it is voluntary on our part), so austere living isn't a grounds for complaint in my book.

5. There are questions as to the means used to identify suspects for capture and incarceration. I will only suggest people identified by sensitive intelligence should be housed separately from people captured in combat operations.

 

[043]

I sure hope there is no naive people on this site!!!! (sarcasm)

The LOAC and the Geneva Convention are guidelines for soldier conduct. Now that being said............if anyone here thinks that these are followed to a T, they are gravely mistaken.  Only a few cases are ever exposed and those are dealt with. It is human nature to want to exact revenge and each person reacts differently to stressful situations. 

The ROE's have evolved to become more Robust and give the soldier the opportunity to shoot first, take questions later...................finally!!!!!!!!!!!!! As long as someone can justify there actions, there is no reason to worry anymore.

WOW, I don't know where I am going with this............

44 Out!

 

[Slim]

I know that I won't make friends or points with this statement but...Lets try to keep in perspective that what the Iraqi prisoners have suffered in Cuba is NOTHING compared to what the AQ has done to its prisoners!

If we listen to the AQ prisoners whining then we're only helping them (AQ) in the long run!

Slim

 

[Rick_Donald]

I think that what you are trying to say is "Kill em all, Let God sort em out."

 

[Slim]

I think that what you are trying to say is "Kill em all, Let God sort em out."

No...Not that either...But I do think that an awful lot of the complaints are BS.

 

[big bad john]

Grilling Canadian teen at Guantanamo Bay necessary: CSIS
 
Colin Perkel
Canadian Press


February 21, 2005


TORONTO (CP) -- Canada's spy agency argues it needs to be able to interrogate a Canadian teenager held as an enemy combatant by American authorities at Guantanamo Bay as part of its fight against terrorism, documents show.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service also says the interrogations are not intended to help in any prosecution of Omar Khadr, whose family was intimately connected to al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.

Khadr is accused of killing an American soldier with a grenade in Afghanistan in July 2002, when he was 15, and could face the death penalty.

His lawyers want the Federal Court to order an end to the interrogations and instead force Ottawa to provide him ``real and substantive'' consular help in Cuba.

"Any efforts to limit or fetter the service's investigative powers ... will hamper the service's ability to advise the Canadian government,'' William Hooper, an assistant of director of operations with CSIS, said in an affidavit obtained by The Canadian Press.

"(It would be) injurious to the public interest from a national-security perspective.''

Other heavily censored documents show Canada has made several low-key approaches to Washington about Khadr.

But while U.S. authorities rebuffed Ottawa's single request for consular access, they have allowed Canadian intelligence agents, including those from Foreign Affairs, to question him on several occasions.

In an interview Monday, Khadr's lawyer said the newly released information confirms Canada has not done enough to help.

"There have been some polite requests, it's all been under wraps (but) there have never been any public demands,'' Nate Whitling said from Edmonton.

"There's certainly never been any attempt to enforce Canada's and our client's rights.''

Khadr's Canadian lawyers, who have not had access to him, have criticized Ottawa's ``silent diplomacy'' as ineffective.

Internal Foreign Affairs briefing notes show federal sensitivity to that kind of criticism.

"The plight of detainees being held by U.S. forces, particularly in Guantanamo Bay, continues to generate considerable interest by the public, media, non-governmental organizations and parliamentarians,'' says one e-mail by a senior Foreign Affairs official to Canada's U.S. embassy in Washington in June 2003.

Among the stated objectives of a visit by senior Foreign Affairs officials to Washington in December 2003 was to "reassure Canadians that our government is protecting the rights of Canadians abroad,'' said a departmental briefing note.

Ottawa's key concern appeared to be whether Khadr, now 18, would be executed if convicted, although he has yet to be charged or stand trial.

In a letter dated Oct. 6, 2003 to his American counterpart, then-foreign affairs minister Bill Graham said Canada's concerns were ``particularly acute'' given Khadr's age.

In his partially blacked-out response, then-secretary of state Colin Powell simply stated that "all enemy combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay are treated humanely.''

Ottawa said recently it accepted those assurances.

However, Khadr's lawyers allege the teenager has been tortured at the U.S. prison in Cuba.

Among other things, they say he has been shackled in painful positions for long periods and threatened with rape.

Khadr's lawyers are trying to force Ottawa to release all relevant documents.

The federal government argues doing so "would be injurious to international relations, national defence or national security.''

Ottawa even threatened the lawyers with "contempt of proceedings'' for releasing unclassified material.

© Canadian Press 2005

 

[George Wallace]

I see the Khadr lawyers are trying to "rape" us.  They are trying to have a "Canadian" of dubious loyalties brought back to Canada.  They are probably trying to apply Canada's Young Offenders laws to an alledged murder in a foreign land.  I don't think there is any precedence in a Canadian convicted of a murder in a foreign land ever falling under Canadian Law,rather than that of the nation in which they were convicted.  Canadians who have committed murder in the US have been sent to Death Row and executed.  Why would we expect anything different for Khadr?  He did not commit murder in Canada.  He is being held for the murder of a US Army medic, in a conflict with US Troops, in which he apparently was a willing combatant.

GW

 

[FredDaHead]

Heres a though, being on the subject of torture and all. While it is against the laws we abide by to torture or mistreat any prisoners, is torture justifiable on occasions? Would it be acceptable if, say, the CIA had the man who knew all the plans for 9/11 and they tortured him (say, sleep/food/comfort deprivation or mental/minor physical pain) in order to save the lives of the thousands that died that day? Or if they had the man who knew about Bali, or a rash of suicide bombings etc etc.

Is torture justifiable in certain cases? Do we need a system that says sometimes you have to kill/hurt one to save a thousand?

This is just my personal view but I think that the old saying "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," is totally right. So, yeah, torture and such are "acceptable" if it's going to save tons of people.

The problem comes when you think "what if the intelligence people are wrong, and the guy doesn't know anything?" Do you torture an innocent man to try and save other innocent people?

 

[S McKee]

Avenging social activists protecting the rights of the down trodden, or greasy lawyers trying to make a name for themselves? You pick

Lawsuit lays blame for torture at the top
Christian Science Monitor, USA
Mar. 2, 2005
Faye Bowers, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
www.csmonitor.com
"¢ More news articles on USA

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ReligionNewsBlog.com "¢ Item 10422 "¢ Posted: 2005-03-02 03:24:46
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In unusual move, human rights groups sue Rumsfeld and others for abuse of prisoners.

WASHINGTON - Human rights organizations are attempting to take accountability for the US military's alleged use of torture to a place government officials have so far failed to go - the top of the chain of command.

In a case that raises significant moral as well as legal questions about the Bush administration's conduct of the war on terror, a coalition of human rights groups, aided by former military officials, is suing to pin blame for the interrogation abuses in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere at the highest level of government.

Tuesday, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Human Rights First filed a lawsuit in a federal court in Illinois on behalf of eight men who they say were subjected to torture and abuse by US forces under the command of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.


"Secretary Rumsfeld bears direct and ultimate responsibility for this descent into horror by personally authorizing unlawful interrogation techniques and by abdicating his legal duty to stop torture," says Lucas Guttentag, lead counsel in the lawsuit and director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project. "He gives lip service to being responsible but has not been held accountable for his actions. This lawsuit puts the blame where it belongs, on the secretary of Defense."

The suit charges Mr. Rumsfeld with violations of the US Constitution and international law prohibiting torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading punishment. The lawsuit also seeks compensatory damages on behalf of the eight individuals allegedly tortured and abused by US military forces.

Although a civil case, it is building on a legal doctrine of holding top officials accountable for treatment of detainees in times of war, according to Scott Horton, chairman for the committee on international law at the New York City Bar Association. The legal rationale is rooted in the Nuremberg trials of 1946, he says, in which top officials were held responsible for establishing an "environment" permissive of abuse.

It's not clear, of course, if the charges will stick or even how the cases will proceed. Military historians can't recall a similar suit being filed. The closest, they say, occurred on the Philippine island of Samar at the turn of the 20th century. Still, those court martials did not go above the level of a brigadier general.

At press time Tuesday, neither Rumsfeld nor the Pentagon had responded to the charges levied in the lawsuit.

"This is obviously the opening gun in what is likely to be a very hard-fought case on both sides," says Eugene Fidell, a military law expert in Washington. "The authors have done an enormous amount of homework and have mined the reports generated over the last year as well as the information the ACLU and others obtained under the FOIA [Freedom of Information Act]."


The implications

The potential implications of this lawsuit are broad. If the prosecutions proceed, for instance, CIA officials could be charged for their role in the alleged torture of several Al Qaeda detainees they've had in its custody in undisclosed locations overseas.

The results of an internal investigation are expected soon. Moreover, the White House's general counsel wrote the memo believed to have created the atmosphere for the abuses. Will he be charged?

The human rights organizations vowed Tuesday to continue to push until they get to the bottom of the abuse scandal they say has tarnished the US at home and abroad. In the past few months, the ACLU has filed a number of FOIA requests that have resulted in the release of volumes of documents relating to torture, including a batch of FBI memos complaining about significant military abuses taking place at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


Examining America's human rights record

Information gleaned from these documents form the basis of the charges in these cases, human rights lawyers said Tuesday.

In addition to Rumsfeld, ACLU officials said suits were also filed against Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who at the time of the Abu Ghraib abuses was in charge of US military operations in Iraq. They also took legal action against Gen. Janis Karpinsky, in charge of the military police at Abu Ghraib, and Col. Thomas Pappas, in charge of the military intelligence interrogators. And they say they are continuing to investigate other s in the chain of command.

Two Pentagon-ordered reports have so far been completed - the Schlesinger and Taguba reports. Both found responsibility for the environment in which the abuses occurred, although not culpability, lay with higher-level officers. Another Pentagon investigation, instigated by the ACLU's release of the FBI memos criticizing military interrogation tactics at Guantanamo, was due out this week.

But on Monday, the Pentagon replaced a one-star general with a three-star general to head up that probe, and it is now not known when it will be completed. The one-star general, because of his lower rank, would not have been permitted to investigate the higher-ranked two-star general in charge of Guantanamo, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who is named in several of the FBI memos.


Moving up the ladder.

Up to this point, only lower-level enlisted men and women have been charged. The most notorious, Spc. Charles Graner, was convicted on several accounts of abuse and sentenced to a 10-year prison term by a court-martial in mid-January. Pvt. Lynndie England and Spc. Sabrina Harman still face charges, while six others have entered guilty pleas.

This past November, US human rights lawyers filed a similar case against Rumsfeld and former CIA director George Tenet in Germany, because its laws allow war crimes prosecutions across national boundaries. But on Feb. 10, the German court ruled the case would not go forward.

"I would suspect the suit is an attempt to improve accountability," says a former Army general who still works for the Pentagon. "And it's to send a message to all involved in such operations that they can be held accountable individually and institutionally for actions on their watch."

 

[Brad Sallows]

Interesting.  I wonder if the activists have considered what it means if the suits go forward and the defendants win.

 

[Torlyn]

Interesting.  I wonder if the activists have considered what it means if the suits go forward and the defendants win.

Perhaps we'd all feel better if the likes of Rumsfeld and his Pentagon cronies were locked up for human rights abuses, and Khadr would be able to return to Canada a free man.  That'd sure make my heart sing...  I wonder how any of these lawyers would feel had the medic been their son or daughter...  Where's the justice for the medic?

T

 

[Slim]

OOooohhh the big, bad U.S. A.

Why does no one ever complain about the head-chopping (with a dull knife even) A.Q.?!

Don't you think that they may have committed an abuse or two?!

Or is it not cool to protest against their behaviour?!

Slim