The low productivity of Canadian companies threatens our living standards

[daftandbarmy]

They are also my best workers. I have a couple of Punjabi fellows that I refer to as my SWAT team. I know when they show up to work, the job is going to get done and it's going to get done right.

We've hired mostly people from 'out of town' too, some much further than others, and they don't disappoint.

The last three locals we hired didn't last long.

 

[Dana381]

The trade itself didn’t require a two year diploma it was the fact no one would hire a apprentice without that two year diploma which is the issue. For me specifically it is machinist and millwright, but I have seen it locally apply to automotive, and electrical the exact same away.

It is changing a bit now though due to desperation. Now most places only need the one year program as a gatekeeper, but the gate keeping is still there.

I understand why companies want it, with the way trades training is structured in this country if you hire a dud thats a lot of wasted money by time you figure that out. And with the way most unions and such work as well you can’t easily get rid of them either.

That being said I have seen more than a few duds with diploma’s because they excel at the school but suck at actually doing the job. Meanwhile they will reject some people who struggle with the schooling but are amazing with their hands.


It depends on where you are and what trades. For example I have never been paid less than 28$ a hour as a apprentice with the wages steadily rising from there. Top rate I have been paid as a apprentice is 38$ a hour. Being a machinist in Southern Ontario is a cut throat job with wages in the 20s. Where I am in Northern Ontario wages are in the 30s-40s.

Historically the low wage system applied mainly because it was intended for those fresh out of high school/not even finished high school. Now as time progresses that system is becoming less relevant every year with the extreme shortages companies are facing.

Obviously there can be some other good paying jobs out there, such as freight train conductors but like everything, we need a balance of people in the workforce.

I never tried to get hired as an apprentice. I was hired as a labourer and ended up fixing trucks. I worked at the same company till about a year after getting my license. I left that job and I moved from PEI to Ontario in 2014. No one cared that I didn't have a diploma to fix trucks. PEI shops didn't even care about the license. It wasn't enforced there and most shops only had 1 or 2 licensed guys with the rest being unlicensed and not apprenticing.

When i moved to Ontario I Started at a Mack dealership based on 1 phone call for 26 and within a 14 months was at 31 because I hit the mack training hard and got my Mack master certification.

Now I'm self employed and I'm able to charge much more than 31. Best thing I ever did for my career was write that test for my mechanics license. My co-workers at the time thought I was crazy. "It's just a piece of paper, it dosent prove anything"

I aspired once to be a mechanical engineer but I couldn't do the academic English in high school needed to get into university. I think I would have been good at mechanical engineering but I don't regret being a mechanic. Many mechanics have learning disabilities with dyslexia being really common. Dyslexic people tend to think visually and are able to picture how things work. I heard once NASA purposely hired dyslexic people to design the Apollo rockets because of the visual thinking. Unfortunately our modern school system is not designed for dyslexics to suceed and many very smart mechanics really struggle with the schooling portion of the apprenticeship. One of my mentors, a very smart guy failed the test by 2 points and gave up because he was so discouraged. Being in PEI he was able to continue working as a mechanic without a license.

Forcing trades people to do two years of school to give them a chance is denying your company the most talented trades people out there. I know of one guy who has ran a transmission rebuild shop for years and I bet he never made it past 8th grade. Best transmission shop around and everyone knew it. He would start work at 4am and finish around noon because he was too drunk to continue by then.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am not sure the “too drunk” part of the story is the super power that you think it is…

But I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am not sure the “too drunk” part of the story is the super power that you think it is…

But I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

One of my first summer jobs was in the cooler of a dairy in Toronto building loads for home delivery. The cooler supervisor, a 40 year old from Down East, who could build loads faster and more accurately than any of the rest of us, worked on two "Forty Pounders of Rum" a day. One for breakfast and another for lunch. A high-functioning alcoholic who needed his "anti-freeze".

I often wondered what he would have been like sober. Never met that man.

 

[MJP]

I am not sure the “too drunk” part of the story is the super power that you think it is…

But I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

I'll take the flex that isn't a flex for $200 Alex

 

[dimsum]

Most colleges require so-called 'liberal arts', non-core-related credits to be part of a diploma.

That is because the reality is that many folks, especially those in STEM, are really bad at communicating. It's the meme about the Marine not knowing how to spell or the NCO not being able to string two sentences together to write a proper PER, in a bigger level.

Decades ago, I asked someone who was in management in a blue-collar field why a seemingly low-level admin position which definitely could be an Apprenticeship needed a university degree. Their answer was "because I've seen too many folks who can't express themselves in writing." So no, the English Lit or whatever arts courses isn't because of woke brainwashing (like one or two courses would do that), it's because people need to learn how to communicate properly.

Another quote (I have no idea who said it) I've always kept in mind is "your communication is your clothing", as in that's generally your first impression on people.

 

[lenaitch]

That is because the reality is that many folks, especially those in STEM, are really bad at communicating. It's the meme about the Marine not knowing how to spell or the NCO not being able to string two sentences together to write a proper PER, in a bigger level.

Decades ago, I asked someone who was in management in a blue-collar field why a seemingly low-level admin position which definitely could be an Apprenticeship needed a university degree. Their answer was "because I've seen too many folks who can't express themselves in writing." So no, the English Lit or whatever arts courses isn't because of woke brainwashing (like one or two courses would do that), it's because people need to learn how to communicate properly.

Another quote (I have no idea who said it) I've always kept in mind is "your communication is your clothing", as in that's generally your first impression on people.

Fair point, but that is the college picking up the slack left by the public school system.

When our daughter started university several years ago, first year students had to take a English test to assess their comprehension and communication skills. If they were lacking they had to take one of two remedial courses (or classes). The university finally dropped it saying that is the school system's problem and if the students were given the marks to be accepted then they swam or sank on their own merits.

 

[dimsum]

Fair point, but that is the college picking up the slack left by the public school system.

When our daughter started university several years ago, first year students had to take a English test to assess their comprehension and communication skills. If they were lacking they had to take one of two remedial courses (or classes). The university finally dropped it saying that is the school system's problem and if the students were given the marks to be accepted then they swam or sank on their own merits.

Hell, I had profs that would fail those tests.

One (who I still remember) made me realize that just reading the book on something I barely understood was more effective, because those concepts were at least thrown at me in something resembling a language I understood.

 

[IKnowNothing]

When our daughter started university several years ago, first year students had to take a English test to assess their comprehension and communication skills. If they were lacking they had to take one of two remedial courses (or classes). The university finally dropped it saying that is the school system's problem and if the students were given the marks to be accepted then they swam or sank on their own merits.

Waterloo?

 

[lenaitch]

Waterloo?

Nope.

 

[mariomike]

People don't want to leave the safety of their cities because work outside their safe spaces at coffee shops is scary.

Toronto emergency services have many out of town applicants.

Railroading has been mentioned. If you want to be a VIA Rail locomotive engineer, Union Station is Canada’s busiest, multi-modal passenger transportation hub. More than a quarter-million people use it daily. That would likely also attract out of town applicants.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Pity that a numeracy course isn't mandatory for non-STEM students.

 

[Eaglelord17]

That is because the reality is that many folks, especially those in STEM, are really bad at communicating. It's the meme about the Marine not knowing how to spell or the NCO not being able to string two sentences together to write a proper PER, in a bigger level.

Decades ago, I asked someone who was in management in a blue-collar field why a seemingly low-level admin position which definitely could be an Apprenticeship needed a university degree. Their answer was "because I've seen too many folks who can't express themselves in writing." So no, the English Lit or whatever arts courses isn't because of woke brainwashing (like one or two courses would do that), it's because people need to learn how to communicate properly.

Another quote (I have no idea who said it) I've always kept in mind is "your communication is your clothing", as in that's generally your first impression on people.

And many folks with liberal arts degrees also suck at communicating. As I view it those non-essential courses are more about providing teachers and professors with otherwise useless degrees work. When I was taking those courses the reasoning they would give is ‘expanding our horizons’ yet they will never have a non-technical course have to take maths or trades related courses.

Academia is a self-licking ice cream cone. For example the local college department head for the trades courses has no engineering/mechanical/electrical/trades/industrial background. Literally basically anyone off the streets is as qualified as they are to be in that position. The next in line is also just as unqualified for it as well.

The skilled trades have basically been forced out of academic positions by the requirements to have unrelated degrees which are difficult to earn when your making a living doing your trade. How many people are willing to just put life on hold for several years when they have a career that is in demand and are making good money doing so? The answer is not many.

 

[YZT580]

And many folks with liberal arts degrees also suck at communicating. As I view it those non-essential courses are more about providing teachers and professors with otherwise useless degrees work. When I was taking those courses the reasoning they would give is ‘expanding our horizons’ yet they will never have a non-technical course have to take maths or trades related courses.

Academia is a self-licking ice cream cone. For example the local college department head for the trades courses has no engineering/mechanical/electrical/trades/industrial background. Literally basically anyone off the streets is as qualified as they are to be in that position. The next in line is also just as unqualified for it as well.

The skilled trades have basically been forced out of academic positions by the requirements to have unrelated degrees which are difficult to earn when your making a living doing your trade. How many people are willing to just put life on hold for several years when they have a career that is in demand and are making good money doing so? The answer is not many.

those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. How many top techs do you know that would willingly put themselves behind a desk?

 

[lenaitch]

The skilled trades have basically been forced out of academic positions by the requirements to have unrelated degrees which are difficult to earn when your making a living doing your trade. How many people are willing to just put life on hold for several years when they have a career that is in demand and are making good money doing so? The answer is not many.

The community college system want to be considered on the same plane as universities.

When I took the 'law enforcement' course at an Ontario community college years (and years) ago, all of the teaching staff were former cops and I doubt any of them had anything other than high school. My wife patched over from policing to full time college staff teaching the same course with only that course's diploma under her belt. Now, in order to be full time faculty, you need a graduate degree. Some are even wanting a post-grad degree (PhD). The programs themselves realize they need instructors with actual experience but they can only be hired as part-timers.

 

[lenaitch]

those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. How many top techs do you know that would willingly put themselves behind a desk?

They are good post retirement gigs, alternatives if the body gave out, etc.

 

[Dana381]

I am not sure the “too drunk” part of the story is the super power that you think it is…

But I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

I wasn't positing it as a superpower, I was merely telling a story of how a relatively uneducated man with a severe disability (alcoholism) could be outstanding in his field. If he had listened to academics he never would have succeeded. Grade schools pound home the narrative that if you don't get a degree you will amount to nothing. Maybe he got out before the pressure started?

 

[Eaglelord17]

those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. How many top techs do you know that would willingly put themselves behind a desk?

Teaching a large part of being a tradesperson, it is expected to have to train and pass on information. Some aren’t good at it/have no interest, but there are many which would make excellent teachers and would enjoy doing so.

For example at some point I wouldn’t mind being a teacher. I genuinely enjoy the trade, and already spend a good amount of time showing others things I have figured out. Other factors are I also enjoy time off, especially in prime time, a excellent pension, not much of a pay reduction, and no requirement to work shift work (personally there is a good chance I will work shift until I retire if I stay where I am at).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Many people who excel in higher academics, suck at teaching it. University hire them to do research, but also want them to teach. As for low level jobs requiring university degrees, are they willing to pay a wage that makes getting that degree worthwhile? My daughter was going down the Early Childhood Education route till she took at look at the wage band of $20-27 an hour and said "That sucks". Now switched to communications.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Teaching a large part of being a tradesperson, it is expected to have to train and pass on information. Some aren’t good at it/have no interest, but there are many which would make excellent teachers and would enjoy doing so.

For example at some point I wouldn’t mind being a teacher. I genuinely enjoy the trade, and already spend a good amount of time showing others things I have figured out. Other factors are I also enjoy time off, especially in prime time, a excellent pension, not much of a pay reduction, and no requirement to work shift work (personally there is a good chance I will work shift until I retire if I stay where I am at).

You are already a teacher. The challenge is helping an educational system acknowledge that, of course.