The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF.

[vonGarvin]

True, its hard to tell what's skewed and what isnt. 

;D  VERY true. 
For others out there, I guess my point is this.  Statistics are nice, for baseball, maybe, but even then, even though a hitter may have a .308 batting average, each individual "At Bat" is just that, individual.  Same with people.  Some are jerks, some are not.  That's my only point, I suppose.

 

[Greymatters]

Throwing statistics out then, lets go with our instincts.  What would the GLBT percentage be if you had to guesstimate?

 

[vonGarvin]

Throwing statistics out then, lets go with our instincts.  What would the GLBT percentage be if you had to guesstimate?

Wow, big question.  Heck, I wouldn't even have a schmick on how many sinister people there are out there (eg: left handed).  My daughter is left handed, so there's one out of 30 million.... >
I would hasard a guess anywhere from 1-5 %.  Somewhere between one in a hundred to one in twenty.  Now, that counts all Canadians, so, among the 16 year olds and older, it would be higher (not saying that younger than 16 aren't humans with preferences, just trying to keep this to the relative adult stage of life.  I'm 41 and I may yet reach adulthood!).  Maybe between one in fifty to one in ten?
In "raw" numbers, assume that there are 30 million Canadians.  1 % is 300 000.  5 % is 1 500 000.  Somewhere in there? 
Anyway, whether only 1 Canadian were HBTS (Homo-, bi-, or trans-sexual), or all 30 million were, it matters not.  Some are jerks, worthy of your scorn, or some are not, not worthy of scorn.  There are a hell of a lot more importan things to worry about in life.  Such as poverty, crime, the Toronto Argonauts, whatever...

 

[Greymatters]

True, there are more important things to consider, but in this case, the debate got started as to actual percentages, so we should accord readers with at least a firm number or two...

I did research on this subject two years ago as part of a client project, and worked for a company where several senior partners and leading consultants were all part of the GLBT commnity.  If you were to assign a percentage, I would say 5% is very fair in respect to what has already been published.  What becomes more apparent is that those on the GLBt support side push for higher numbers than 5%, while those who oppose the GLBT lifestyle insist the numbers are lower than 5%.  The reason the numbers cannot truly be resolved is that most will not self-declare so no study can be considered truly accurate...

In conclusion...  :deadhorse:

 

[The Bread Guy]

And to those who may still think (quite incorrectly) think soliders as a group are homophobes, here's something from Anne Irwin (bio), an anthropologist who's spent time with an infantry battalion preparing for and deployed to Afghanistan (caveat:  I'm not impressed with some of the paraphrasing & "editorial triage" of the rest of the article, but I felt this bit was worth sharing):

(....)
Her time with the infantry has given Irwin insight not only into the way that queer soldiers are becoming more accepted, but also women in the infantry, as Canada is one of the few countries that allow women to serve in front-line positions  ....  "The infantry is still probably the most macho of all the trades," she says. "I wouldn't call it homophobia. I wouldn't go that far. Certainly people have absorbed or followed the rules and know that they're not allowed to make openly harassing comments, but there's also a lot of joking that, if you didn't understand the context, may come across as homophobic joking. But I don't think it is  ....  The bottom line for them is if you do your job, you're accepted. What they care about is whether someone going to stand behind me, is someone going to do his share of the work?"

Amen....

 

[DONT_PANIC]

And to those who may still think (quite incorrectly) think soliders as a group are homophobes, here's something from Anne Irwin (bio), an anthropologist who's spent time with an infantry battalion preparing for and deployed to Afghanistan (caveat:  I'm not impressed with some of the paraphrasing & "editorial triage" of the rest of the article, but I felt this bit was worth sharing):

Amen....

Dr. Irwin had taught a course in military anthropology at the U of C last fall.  While discussing the notion of going "field gay", she had mentioned one case in a visit to Afghanistan where a lesbian soldier had told her (Dr. Irwin) that she (the lesbian) was actually going "field straight" after a while.

 

[GAP]

Woman sues Canadian forces for $1.5m in lawsuit claiming sexual harassment
Canwest News Service   Published: Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Article Link

QUEBEC -A woman who spent 25 years in the Canadian military is suing her former employer for $1.5-million, arguing she suffered years of sexual harassment and discrimination because she was a lesbian. In a lawsuit filed in Quebec Superior Court, Lise Gauthier claims she was sexually assaulted in 1982 and 1983 shortly after she joined the Forces in Trenton, Ont. She argues that the Canadian military considered her homosexuality as a "sexual abnormality" and she was repeatedly harassed both in CFB Trenton and when she was transferred to CFB Bagotville, in the Saguenay area, in 1994. The plaintiff claims that she was "psychologically and sexually harassed." A statement of defence Has not yet been filed.
end of article

 

[daftandbarmy]

Woman sues Canadian forces for $1.5m in lawsuit claiming sexual harassment
Canwest News Service  
Published: Wednesday, September 24, 2008


QUEBEC -A woman who spent 25 years in the Canadian military is suing her former employer for $1.5-million, arguing she suffered years of sexual harassment and discrimination because she was a lesbian. In a lawsuit filed in Quebec Superior Court, Lise Gauthier claims she was sexually assaulted in 1982 and 1983 shortly after she joined the Forces in Trenton, Ont. She argues that the Canadian military considered her homosexuality as a "sexual abnormality" and she was repeatedly harassed both in CFB Trenton and when she was transferred to CFB Bagotville, in the Saguenay area, in 1994. The plaintiff claims that she was "psychologically and sexually harassed." A statement of defence has not yet been filed.

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=822118

 

[Niteshade]

Hrm - I am going to call BS on this one. If she was indeed harassed, she would likely have left the forces... but instead completes 25 years and collects her pension? Something isnt adding up. Also I suspect the DND has a pretty good paper trail of any complaints/discipline for any reported actions. My money is this will be settled.

Nites

 

[Harley Sailor]

I guess it took her 20 years to work up the nerve.  Was she that worries about her career that she didn't complain until it was over?  If she had a case could she not have asked for her money 10 years ago?  I know; she had to wait until society found what happened to her to be unexceptable.  When we judge her case we need to look at how life was viewed then, not today.  Without even knowing the details I can bet that what happened would be unexceptable today, but it didn't happen today.

 

[Niteshade]

If it takes her 20+ years to file a grievance fine. Except, if it was SOOOO severe like she claims, and is worth the sizable sum of 1.5 million, well one needs to ask: Why did she not sue sooner? Sexual harassment in the workplace has been illegal for a good time.

I call cash grab.

Nites

 

[jcph90]

I guess she wanted her pension before she sued. It really sickens me, isn't there a statue of limitations or something like that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hrm - I am going to call BS on this one. If she was indeed harassed, she would likely have left the forces... but instead completes 25 years and collects her pension? Something isnt adding up. Also I suspect the DND has a pretty good paper trail of any complaints/discipline for any reported actions. My money is this will be settled.

Nites

You should read about what the NIS and friends used to do way back in the day to people suspected of being teh gay.
If DND can loose your stupid contact information 40 times over what do you think the chances of them loosing something 25 years old?

If the military was her career, and being gay was illegal, socially unacceptable and a career killer, do you really need to wonder why she would just STFU and soldier on? 

 

[Niteshade]

I think there is. It's muddled though.

Criminal action (prosecution for an offense) has no statute of limitations.

General claims (Civil court) is usually 6 years, with some exceptions.

I am not sure if this falls into the "exception" category. It won't see a trial anyway. It will be settled out of court.

Nites

 

[Teeps74]

You should read about what the NIS and friends used to do way back in the day to people suspected of being teh gay.
If DND can loose your stupid contact information 40 times over what do you think the chances of them loosing something 25 years old?

If the military was her career, and being gay was illegal, socially unacceptable and a career killer, do you really need to wonder why she would just STFU and soldier on? 

How did you get so smart FD? I could not have written better myself.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hrm - I am going to call BS on this one. If she was indeed harassed, she would likely have left the forces... but instead completes 25 years and collects her pension? Something isnt adding up. Also I suspect the DND has a pretty good paper trail of any complaints/discipline for any reported actions. My money is this will be settled.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not illegal to sue the gov't while you're still working for it?

Now, the 25 year gap?  Good question...

 

[Slim]

Hi Gents

I'm not seen here much anymore but do lurk and keep tabs...

I will risk putting my size 12 EEE in my mouth and wade in on the issue as it were...

I recently lost a good friend to suicide.

He was a soldier and police officer with good career histories in both services.

He was sexually harassed JUST ONCE...and it had such a profound effect on him that, eventually, he felt that he would never be rid of the stain of it and took his own life.

This was many years after theinitial incident occured. I kow and have served in those dark days for long enough not to doubt his story for a moment.

We are all effected differently by traumatic events...sometimes the pot boils and, even though it be long after, it just can't stay inside anymore...

I'm not saying she's right or wrong...just some food for thought.

Cheers

Slim

 

[Teeps74]

Thanks Slim, it is never easy for us to talk about our friends and loved ones lost.

We must all remember that different things/events will impact us all differently. Judging a person by our own expereinces is not usually an effective way to judge someone. I am a jovial kind of person myself, and rarely do I take an insult personally... I do however know several people that take even the slightest put down very personally, and hold grudges for years over it. We do not have to understand these differences, we only have to acknowledge them.

 

[Slim]

Thanks Slim, it is never easy for us to talk about our friends and loved ones lost.

We must all remember that different things/events will impact us all differently. Judging a person by our own expereinces is not usually an effective way to judge someone. I am a jovial kind of person myself, and rarely do I take an insult personally... I do however know several people that take even the slightest put down very personally, and hold grudges for years over it. We do not have to understand these differences, we only have to acknowledge them.

I think that it must be pretty aweful to have something like that burning you up on the inside. I'm sure it was only made worse by the knowledge that the senior NCO's and the guy's troop leader just stood there, watching and laughing.

If that incident had taken place today people would be off to jail! But this was back in the late 80's when that sort of thing was just...funny.

 

[Armymedic]

Slim,
so I am on the same page, the person in the above post worked with us in different spots in Gagetown?