The Merits of the ROTP Program (Split from

[dimsum]

And I'm not trying to bicker here, I am humbly dazzled and curiously seeking a professional assessment, but do we not in any way prove our military ability in our phase training? I haven't completed enough of it to get a feel for how people perform on course versus how they perform in life/in the military, but honestly, don't instructors see how someone performs on course and say to themselves and their fellow instructors, "Look at that bloke, he'll make a fine/terrible platoon commander/gunner/clerk/pilot..."?

NCdt Lumber,

Before finishing your BWK training, I guarantee you'll hear this line at least twice:

"Remember what they taught you in VENTURE/HMCS (MCDV/Reg F ship)? Well, forget it...this is how we work in HMCS X."  Things change a LOT in between the VENTURE world and the ships...that's what shocks a lot of the A/SLTs and some find it easier, some find it a lot harder.  You can never really tell what it'll be like until you get out to your first MCDV for the MARS IV sea phase.

Now, on the subject of whether one needs a degree to be a good officer (general service, not legal/medical/chaplain), I know of some very competent MARS officers who have not had their degrees since they commissioned under the Naval Reserve while in post-secondary, didn't go back to school and continued sailing instead.  If they hadn't told me that they didn't have post-secondary, I would have never questioned that they had at least an undergrad.  In my experience (much less than all of the others on this thread), my undergrad didn't have a lick of influence on how I handled myself on the bridge or in admin matters.  If anything, I always joked that my essay-writing skills (so highly-perfected in civ univ) now wouldn't even pass for a Gr 7 book report!  How one performs as an officer has usually zero to do with their education.

What Medtech said about ROTP working with PRes...definitely.  Completely, 200% support it.

 

[54/102 CEF]

How about some balance - this is no place to spout off wildly, about offrs or ncos with degrees or no degrees.

There are many programs to move ahead with education - anyone can get education in 4 years - it takes time to grow leadership in the officer and NCO branches of the forces. People with promise will be rewarded with greater responsibility and opportunity from wherever they come from.

And last time I checked all Forces units represent the entire country.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

How about some balance - this is no place to spout off wildly, about offrs or ncos with degrees or no degrees.

Not sure what tack you're heading on here.  Did you read my entire post?  Short version of my thesis - the CF does not need to spend the Queen's money paying for OCdts to get university degrees prior to them actually serving in the CF.  Sponsored degrees should be offered to those (officer and NCO) who have earned it and will repay the Queen's investment with commensurate performance at a level where the critical thinking skills honed by university study and a broadening of experience learned by immersion in academic fora are needed.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Which will certainly kill a few "this is what I plan to do once I have finished my mandatory service threads"....

 

[Franko]

Which will certainly kill a few "this is what I plan to do once I have finished my mandatory service threads"....

We can only hope....        :

Regards

 

[medaid]

Which will certainly kill a few "this is what I plan to do once I have finished my mandatory service threads"....

...never gonna happen one can only hope... perhaps when monkey orbit the Ear... oh wait... DAMN!

 

[blacktriangle]

In my very limited experience, I have found that some of the most competent officers (at least in my opinion) have had rather useless degrees for a military setting (e.g. film/enviromental studies) but were confident, intelligent, fit and good leaders. I have also seen officers with degrees in difficult subjects, who can't even lead a platoon attack.

However, in our society everyone thinks a degree is great, and the education system pushes youth to obtain such an education, or face poverty and a dead end job. Until society comes to view a university degree for what it really is, I don't think this will change.

 

[aesop081]

Interesting question: Are there any cases, and if so, what were the results, of a NCM gone CFR and been unable to successfully obtain a university degree?

Does not matter. An NCM gaining comission by way of CFR is not required to get a degree.

 

[54/102 CEF]

My point - To unilaterally close off other areas tends to limit the strength of your good arguments.

 

[medaid]

Piper, good points but I just brought it up because I was thinking about it. Not thoroughly enough as it is, but just some ideas that were thrown around. Honestly though, CiviU candidates need to do SOMETHING through out the year... their drill becomes horrible a year of no drillness ;D

 

[medaid]

Agreed. I looked into my local unit, but the really didn't have much to do for a half-trained loggie (they're artillery) who isn't going to be around for summer training, exercises etc.

OJT is the way to go in my view. Not the stupid 'pushing paper at a CFRC Det or local Mo unit to kill time before course' that officer cadets usually get saddled with. If they really want to employ us gainfully and give us experience to use when we hit out units, toss 'em into a reg force unit/installation for a few months. The ones I were with were both 'operational' units, one of which was working up for deployment, and they had to no problem taking me in. Everyone was helpful, knowledgeable and pretty darn friendly towards me. I learned alot in both places.

Also agreed. I always wondered how a newly commissioned 2Lt or OCdt were going to tell prospective candidates which trade to go for from their VAST amounts of experience. I think gainfully employed is the key word. Going back to one of my previous posts, I think officer candidates who are filled with piss and vigor should be given the chance to put that to use, under the scornful and watchful eyes of a Sgt or WO.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Piper, good post.  Definitely keeps it real for those who have been away from the training system for a while and calls a spade a spade. 

 

[medaid]

I for one don't, and I find my own OJT opportunities instead of waiting on my CoC to find somewhere meaningless to put me.

Initiative and drive mate, initiative and drive! ;D

 

[medaid]

And some friends in high places helps a little bit too, not going to lie.

Oh oh! I'd like a few of those as well! Need to go to exciting places and honestly... Venture just doesn't do it for me

 

[observor 69]

How does your view of the training system incorporate officers without a degree?  Are they less well-trained?

The need for a degree-granting military institution today is questionable at best and I am not sure if the CF needs RMC as much as RMC needs the CF.  Turn it into a leadership school for all officers (BOTC or whatever we are calling it today) and let the civilian post-secondary institutions handle academics.

To be fair, there are a couple of aspects that help the military (War Studies).  Beyond that, if we need an ROTP program to attract people with a free degree then send them to Civie U and loan them to reserve units or form "ROTP Dets" to give training during the year.

You mean like this:
"Sandhurst, unlike some other national military academies such as West Point in the United States, the Pakistan Military Academy, the National Defence Academy (India) or the Australian Defence Force Academy, is not a university. Eighty-five percent of entrants are university graduates, but this is not an absolute requirement.[1] This is illustrated by Prince William and Prince Harry; one a graduate, the other not. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Academy_Sandhurst

 

[medaid]

Not a fan of BC are we? 

Just not a fan of Venture... I have to redo my BOTC like I whined about earlier. Thus not thrilled about Venture would be way more thrilled about Kingston, and Quebec and then somewhere dark and air conditioned for a little bit, then somewhere bright, dusty, and hot for a long while.

 

[McG]

I don't have time to present my full thoughts at this moment, but I'll drop a few just to continue discussion for now.  For those who have seen it, Training Canada's Army explains the difference between training & education, and it goes into why education is important (for all ranks).  I think the arguments in that document are sound, though I don't know that RMC is achieving the stated aim.  (more on this later)

If we can agree that there is a certain point at which an officer should (not necessarily must) have a degree, then it is far cheaper to do it while paying the wages of an OCdt for 4 years as opposed to a senior captain.  However, there may be better ways to go about this.  OCdts could do two year diploma programs, complete occupational training and then go off to a job.  The worthy Capt/Maj could be selected to complete the undergrad, and worthy Maj/LCol to do a graduate degree.  The exception to this would be those professions which require the degree to complete their functions (medical, legal, engineer, etc). 

 

[armyvern]

Agreed. I looked into my local unit, but the really didn't have much to do for a half-trained loggie (they're artillery) who isn't going to be around for summer training, exercises etc.

I could have used you at my loc the past two summers. I had a NurseO OJTing at the 3ASG Det who I got to train as a Loggie. I think I almost had him convinced to switch!!  >

 

[dapaterson]

Let's roll CSA-105's points and Piper's points into another thought:

Why can't Reg F Capt/Majs sent on graduate studies be obliged to parade part-time with Reserve units?  Experienced leaders providing part-time support would be welcome in any Reserve unit, even if it were only for a 2 year period.  After all, many Res F officers somehow manage to balance family, studies and the military - is it too much to ask the same fro mthe Reg F?

 

[dapaterson]

Piper:  With 40% of P Res Capt/Majs already working full-time, units would be grateful for a little more help - even if it's just to fulfill some of the staff work that grows daily.  An extra Capt or two would help attrit some of the mounting piles of papers and electrons in every unit.