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The "Occupy" Movement

Redeye said:
Denver was also the scene of a pretty heavy-handed response. I think Dallas as well.

Three out of how many worldwide? I am not saying heavy-handedness, if that's indeed what it was, is correct, it's not. But from what I have been able to see in a few cities it's been more than even tempered. Just as we can't dismiss the protestors claims they were unfairly treated you can't out of hand dismiss the cops claiming they acted in a justifiable manner.

As am I - but that's not the issue. The issue is, why was that level of force necessary against people occupying a public space doing exactly what their fundamental freedoms should allow them to do?

With all but a few exceptions wouldn't you agree that one could avoid getting a baton imprint on the melon by simply doing what you're told, when you are told? Seems like simple math to me.

Lastly: What Technoviking said.
 
Scott said:
Three out of how many worldwide? I am not saying heavy-handedness, if that's indeed what it was, is correct, it's not. But from what I have been able to see in a few cities it's been more than even tempered. Just as we can't dismiss the protestors claims they were unfairly treated you can't out of hand dismiss the cops claiming they acted in a justifiable manner.

With all but a few exceptions wouldn't you agree that one could avoid getting a baton imprint on the melon by simply doing what you're told, when you are told? Seems like simple math to me.

Lastly: What Technoviking said.

One such incident is too much - and it's a principle thing I guess. What's the point of much-vaunted freedoms if they exist only as ideas and cannot actually be exercised. I'd like to know what the justification for using CS etc was in the cases where it was used. There's probably a lot more to the story than I know of at this point - but from an early observation I fail to see why that sort of response was in any way justifiable in a supposedly free & democratic society. This wasn't Black Bloc morons destroying property from what I understand, or anything remotely resembling that.
 
Redeye said:
I'd like to know what the justification for using CS etc was in the cases where it was used.
Why?  You're not an American Citizen, so, really, who cares?


 
Redeye said:
... This wasn't Black Bloc morons destroying property...


Agreed, but it was band of lawbreakers who decided not to obey a lawful command given by the democratically elected city government. They got what they deserved.

And what about this? The "occupiers" will not vacate the Grand parade in Halifax for Remembrance Day (in fairness they say they have told someone that they are willing to accommodate the services). What should the Mayor of Halifax do? If Mayor Kelly has any spine at all, if he has even a single shred of human decency then he will clear the park, sooner rather than later, in full public view, using water cannon, billy clubs and bulldozers. He will drive the rabble out and back to their parents' basements and then he will clean and fumigate the Grand Parade because the area is, with a doubt, infected with viruses: the incredibly f_cking stupid and I'm entitled viruses in particular.
 
Technoviking said:
Why?  You're not an American Citizen, so, really, who cares?

Really?

I'm married to an American. A lot of my friends are Americans. I live in a country whose economic stability and politics are intimately connected to that of the United States of America. Etc, etc....
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Agreed, but it was band of lawbreakers who decided not to obey a lawful command given by the democratically elected city government. They got what they deserved.

And what about this? The "occupiers" will not vacate the Grand parade in Halifax for Remembrance Day (in fairness they say they have told someone that they are willing to accommodate the services). What should the Mayor of Halifax do? If Mayor Kelly has any spine at all, if he has even a single shred of human decency then he will clear the park, sooner rather than later, in full public view, using water cannon, billy clubs and bulldozers. He will drive the rabble out and back to their parents' basements and then he will clean and fumigate the Grand Parade because the area is, with a doubt, infected with viruses: the incredibly f_cking stupid and I'm entitled viruses in particular.

Um, you're a day late and a buck short, Mr. Campbell. The folks on the Grand Parade met the Mayor and Legion reps and agreed to clean up the Grand Parade and relocate in time for the Holocaust Memorial and Remembrance Day services. They never, to my understanding, said that they wouldn't cooperate,  and I'm not surprised because they did the same thing for a police memorial service several weeks ago.
 
Redeye said:
One such incident is too much - and it's a principle thing I guess. What's the point of much-vaunted freedoms if they exist only as ideas and cannot actually be exercised.

How long have they been expressing these freedoms before being asked to PFO? I don't think they just turned up only to see the cops roll in wearing riot gear the next minute.

I'd like to know what the justification for using CS etc was in the cases where it was used. There's probably a lot more to the story than I know of at this point - but from an early observation I fail to see why that sort of response was in any way justifiable in a supposedly free & democratic society.

Why don't you just leave it at "There's probably a lot more to the story than I know of at this point" Because that's where we all are. You think the cops went too far, I think the protestors were talking when they should have been listening. Enough already.

This wasn't Black Bloc morons destroying property from what I understand, or anything remotely resembling that.

We know that. Comparing the two groups is like apples and bowling balls. Besides, if what I have seen from occupy is indicative of the works of them then no one would have enough drive to smash windows out of a Starbucks or torch a cop car.

That said I go back to the point: they were, in all likelihood, asked to move. They didn't. They get smacked. They earned it. If someone delivering the smacks went too far then they should have something coming as well but I am not one of those types who automatically sides with the poor, disenfranchised, iPhone toting, laptop waving, professional protestor. If the cops were in the wrong then they need to pay for that, but just because they went against some bunch of people protesting whatever is cool for the day doesn't make them guilty of anything.

Redeye said:
Um, you're a day late and a buck short, Mr. Campbell. The folks on the Grand Parade met the Mayor and Legion reps and agreed to clean up the Grand Parade and relocate in time for the Holocaust Memorial and Remembrance Day services. They never, to my understanding, said that they wouldn't cooperate,  and I'm not surprised because they did the same thing for a police memorial service several weeks ago.

Eh? Check your facts. At first they flat out refused. Then they tried the tripe line about how the vets fought for them as well and so they deserve to be there. Then they argued that the people who want them out of there should ask the vets what they want. Then they said IF they leave it will be after a "negotiation". A negotiation. Seriously.

This would all be up on Facebook if they weren't controlling comment threads...they want reasoned discourse...until it interferes with their goals, their occupation, their wishes, their time...see a theme? I watched it go down - did you? I watched questions being asked...I also watched some trolling, admittedly, but I also watched them, or at least their Facebook representative steadfastly refuse to answer questions and hold the line that they have the right to be there during ceremonies.

You can have the last word. I'm done. And I do mean that I am done.

Edited: grammar and emphasis.
 
Redeye said:
Um, you're a day late and a buck short, Mr. Campbell. The folks on the Grand Parade met the Mayor and Legion reps and agreed to clean up the Grand Parade and relocate in time for the Holocaust Memorial and Remembrance Day services. They never, to my understanding, said that they wouldn't cooperate,  and I'm not surprised because they did the same thing for a police memorial service several weeks ago.


Good for them, but they should relocate to a place where camping is legal.
 
Redeye said:
Really?

I'm married to an American. A lot of my friends are Americans. I live in a country whose economic stability and politics are intimately connected to that of the United States of America. Etc, etc....
My point is just me (partially nic fitting), but it's a common counter I receive when I decry (something) that happens far away and doesn't affect me personally.

(In all honesty, I am of the opinion that right is right, and wrong is wrong, and no matter if it affects you personally or not at all, you ought to stand against the wrong.  I just disagree that there has been a grand "wrong" in this case, considering the available evidence.  If it's the case that a cop went rogue and fired at the guy with the intent to maim, injure or kill, well that's wrong and it ought to be punished.  I'm just not convinced that there was a rogue cop, or that there was an implied or assigned order to the cops to use violence).

 
Technoviking said:
My point is just me (partially nic fitting), but it's a common counter I receive when I decry (something) that happens far away and doesn't affect me personally.

(In all honesty, I am of the opinion that right is right, and wrong is wrong, and no matter if it affects you personally or not at all, you ought to stand against the wrong.  I just disagree that there has been a grand "wrong" in this case, considering the available evidence.  If it's the case that a cop went rogue and fired at the guy with the intent to maim, injure or kill, well that's wrong and it ought to be punished.  I'm just not convinced that there was a rogue cop, or that there was an implied or assigned order to the cops to use violence).

I don't think there was any deliberate malfeasance, and have seen no evidence, but to start using CS etc someone had to give an order, presumably, and what I don't get is what the justification for that, in the face of individuals who I've seen no evidence suggest were violent.
 
Redeye said:
I don't think there was any deliberate malfeasance, and have seen no evidence, but to start using CS etc someone had to give an order, presumably, and what I don't get is what the justification for that, in the face of individuals who I've seen no evidence suggest were violent.


When you are the "lawful authority" and the democratically elected government says, "move the 'occupiers' out of the park" and you go and tell them, "move along," and they say "No!" then what? Do you back away from your assigned, lawful duty just because they said "no1" rather than saying "No!" and tossing a Molotov cocktail? I don't think so. Faced with the "No!" you say, "Move or I'll move you," and then you must move them or the "lawful authority" no longer has much authority with which to enforce the laws. So you push and shove and if they will not move as you require you fire gas or water cannons or call in the horses, but you do not allow the lawbreakers, and let us be clear, that's what they are, to win.

 
Assembling for a protest is one thing.  However, there are laws against setting up camps and structures on public land.  Those laws should be enforced.  If I were to go the park and set up a tent, I can guarantee you that I would be evicted forthwith.  Why should these guys get a pass?
 
I know I am on dangerous ground trying to enter this "discussion" so my brief thought.
My attempt to understand where the Occupy movement is coming from is guided by looking at the Depression era demonstrations. Frustration at a government and economy that had left them with no possibility of any means or opportunity to make a dollar IE. make a living.
Parallels to Occupy can be drawn, tremendous amount of mortgage debt holding down the economy, debt that should never have been given but for greed and a lookout for number one.
An economy that can't generate anything near enough jobs.
A Republican party whose main stated goal is to kill any attempt for reelection of Obama vice any effort at economic recovery. Hence frustration at the governments lack of action.
 
Baden  Guy said:
I know I am on dangerous ground trying to enter this "discussion" so my brief thought.
My attempt to understand where the Occupy movement is coming from is guided by looking at the Depression era demonstrations. Frustration at a government and economy that had left them with no possibility of any means or opportunity to make a dollar IE. make a living.
Parallels to Occupy can be drawn, tremendous amount of mortgage debt holding down the economy, debt that should never have been given but for greed and a lookout for number one.
An economy that can't generate anything near enough jobs.
A Republican party whose main stated goal is to kill any attempt for reelection of Obama vice any effort at economic recovery. Hence frustration at the governments lack of action.


The Depression era demonstrations were of a somewhat different order, I think. The people demonstrating, some of them, anyway, were homeless and, sometimes, at or near starvation. They were expression dissatisfaction with government and the economy, to be sure, but they were also begging for charity. We are in a long, difficult recession and I do want to minimize the real problems that many people are having, but the "occupiers" are not in anything like the same situation as demonstrators in the "dirty thirties."
 
RangerRay said:
However, there are laws against setting up camps and structures on public land.  Those laws should be enforced.  If I were to go the park and set up a tent, I can guarantee you that I would be evicted forthwith.  Why should these guys get a pass?

I think a lot of people are asking that question.
I don't know about other cities, but Toronto seemed fairly tolerant of close to downtown "camps and structures on public land", as long as they stayed low on the public complaint scale. I remember a hobo jungle in the Don Valley ravine. You could hardly see some dwellings in the ravines until the leaves fell off.
There was also a tent city down near Cherry Beach. It was big. I read that it was, "the largest hobo town on the continent." Nothing left of it now. ( I remember when a lady had a baby in there. They were a long walk from the nearest telephone booth. )
There were also people living under the Gardiner Expressway.
 
I think this poster has "gotten" what OWS is really all about. Look closely at the demographic of the campers and professional protesters involved (and the complaints about the burdens of educational loans for essentially useless degrees and credentials) and you will see the point he is trying to make here:

http://volokh.com/2011/10/31/the-fragmenting-of-the-new-class-elites-or-downward-mobility/

The Fragmenting of the New Class Elites, or, Downward Mobility
Kenneth Anderson • October 31, 2011 11:27 am

Glenn Reynolds is correct in his weekend post to point to the social theory of the New Class as key to understanding the convulsions in the middle and upper middle class; I’ve written about it myself here at VC and in a 1990s law journal book review essay.  The angst is partly income, of course — but it’s also in considerable part, as Glenn notes, “characterized as much by self-importance as by higher income, and is far more eager to keep the proles in their place than, say, [Anne] Applebaum’s small-town dentist. It’s thus not surprising that as its influence has grown, economic opportunity has increasingly been closed down by government barriers.”

The problem the New Class faces at this point is the psychological and social self-perceptions of a status group that is alienated (as we marxists say) from traditional labor by its semi-privileged upbringing — and by the fact that it is actually, two distinct strands, a privileged one and a semi-privileged one.  It is, for the moment, insistent not just on white-collar work as its birthright and unable to conceive of much else.  It does not celebrate the dignity of labor; it conceived of itself as existing to regulate labor.  So it has purified itself to the point that not just any white-collar work will do.  It has to be, as Michelle Obama instructed people in what now has to be seen as another era, virtuous non-profit or government work.  Those attitudes are changing, but only slowly; the university pipelines are still full of people who cannot imagine themselves in any other kind of work, unless it means working for Apple or Google.

The New Class has always operated across the lines of public and private, however, the government-university-finance and technology capital sectors.  It is not a theory of the government class versus the business class — as 1990s neoconservatives sometimes mistakenly imagined.  As Lasch pointed out, it is the class that bridges and moves effortlessly between the two.  As a theory of late capitalism (once imported from being an analysis of communist nomenkaltura) it offers itself as a theory of technocratic expertise first  - but, if that spectacularly fails as it did in 2008, it falls back on a much more rudimentary claim of monopoly access to the levers of the economy.  Which is to say, the right to bridge the private-public line, and rent out its access.

The OWS movement against this social theory backdrop?  (Let’s leave aside the material reality of its occupation, so far as one can tell today from shifting reporting: geographies in which public order was deliberately withdrawn to indulge a certain class of youth and not-so-youth (and the aging generation of New Class professionals projecting its political nostalgia onto it). The result is theft, violence, sexual assault, and levels of filth that, absent the infrastructure of the world’s richest large society, would mean what it means in Haiti — dysentery, cholera, epidemic disease.  Epidemic disease is what happens when you shit your nest, unless there is a larger society that will clean up after you.  The culture industry averts its eyes in its effort to have its nostalgic dream intact.  But leave that aside, and leave aside, too, the folks who send in the organic beet root and goat cheese — for the consumption of the wanna-be New Class that, somehow, has notions of property and entitlement of an intensity that only a born regulator can have, and therefore fine-tuned notions of who eats organic and who goes to the soup kitchen.  This is further complicated by the confused politics of the protestors, engaging in confrontations with police, as Harry Siegel reports from New York, who seem to have responded by encouraging the homeless and disturbed to join them.  Ann Althouse is right to point to Joan Didion’s Slouching Toward Bethlehem, on the decline of the Haight-Ashbury utopia.)

In social theory, OWS is best understood not as a populist movement against the bankers, but instead as the breakdown of the New Class into its two increasingly disconnected parts.  The upper tier, the bankers-government bankers-super credentialed elites.  But also the lower tier, those who saw themselves entitled to a white collar job in the Virtue Industries of government and non-profits — the helping professions, the culture industry, the virtueocracies, the industries of therapeutic social control, as Christopher Lasch pointed out in his final book, The Revolt of the Elites.

The two tiers of the New Class have always had different sources of rents, however.  For the upper tier, since 1990, it has come through its ability to take the benefits of generations of US social investment in education and sell that expertise across global markets — leveraging expertise and access to capital and technological markets in the 1990s to places in Asia and the former communist world in desperate need of it.  As Lasch said, the revolt and flight of the elites, to marketize themselves globally as free agents — to take the social capital derived over many generations by American society, and to go live in the jet stream and extract returns on a global scale for that expertise.  But that expertise is now largely commodified — to paraphrase David Swenson on financial engineering, that kind of universal expertise is commodified, cheaply available, and no longer commands much premium.  As those returns have come under pressure, the Global New Class has come home, looking to command premiums through privileged access to the public-private divide — access most visible at the moment as virtuous new technology projects that turn out to be mere crony capitalism.

The lower tier is in a different situation and always has been.  It is characterized by status-income disequilibrium, to borrow from David Brooks; it cultivates the sensibilities of the upper tier New Class, but does not have the ability to globalize its rent extraction.  The helping professions, the professions of therapeutic authoritarianism (the social workers as well as the public safety workers), the virtuecrats, the regulatory class, etc., have a problem — they mostly service and manage individuals, the client-consumers of the welfare state.  Their rents are not leveraged very much, certainly not globally, and are limited to what amounts to an hourly wage.  The method of ramping up wages, however, is through public employee unions and their own special ability to access the public-private divide.  But, as everyone understands, that model no longer works, because it has overreached and overleveraged, to the point that even the system’s most sympathetic politicians understand that it cannot pay up.

The upper tier is still doing pretty well.  But the lower tier of the New Class — the machine by which universities trained young people to become minor regulators and then delivered them into white collar positions on the basis of credentials in history, political science, literature, ethnic and women’s studies — with or without the benefit of law school — has broken down.  The supply is uninterrupted, but the demand has dried up.  The agony of the students getting dumped at the far end of the supply chain is in large part the OWS.  As Above the Law points out, here is “John,” who got out of undergrad, spent a year unemployed and living at home, and is now apparently at University of Vermont law school, with its top ranked environmental law program — John wants to work at a “nonprofit.”

Even more frightening is the young woman who graduated from UC Berkeley, wanting to work in “sustainable conservation.”  She is now raising chickens at home, dying wool and knitting knick-knacks to sell at craft fairs.  Her husband has been studying criminal justice and EMT — i.e., preparing to work for government in some of California’s hitherto most lucrative positions — but as those work possibilities have dried up, he is hedging with a (sensible) apprenticeship as an electrician.  These young people are looking at serious downward mobility, in income as well as status.  The prospects of the lower tier New Class semi-professionals are dissolving at an alarming rate.  Student loan debt is a large part of its problems, but that’s essentially a cost question accompanying a loss of demand for these professionals’ services.

The OWS protestors are a revolt — a shrill, cri-de-coeur wail at the betrayal of class solidarity — of the lower tier New Class against the upper tier New Class.  It was, after all, the upper tier New Class, the private-public finance consortium, that created the student loan business and inflated the bubble in which these lower tier would-be professionals borrowed the money.  It’s a securitization machine, not so very different from the subprime mortgage machine.  The asset bubble pops, but the upper tier New Class, having insulated itself and, as with subprime, having taken its cut upfront and passed the risk along, is still doing pretty well.  It’s not populism versus the bankers so much as internecine warfare between two tiers of elites.

The downward mobility is real, however, in both income and status.  The Cal graduate started out wanting to do “sustainable conservation.”  She is now engaged in something closer to subsistence farming.
 
It is very hard, nearly impossible in Canada USA, to find, but here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Financial Times, is some sense about the "occupy" movement:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/86d8634a-ff34-11e0-9769-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1cOj0xKRI
The big questions raised by anti-capitalist protests

By Martin Wolf

27 October 2011

Why did it take so long? It is over four years since the financial crisis began. Yet only now are anti-capitalist protests emerging, including at St Paul's Cathedral. So is this the beginning of a resurgent leftwing politics? I doubt it. Are the protesters raising some big questions? Yes, they are.

For this to be the beginning of a new leftwing politics, two things have to occur: first, a credible new ideology must emerge; second, some social force must march behind it.

In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the ideology was socialism and the force was organised labour. Socialism failed as a way of running economies. It did, however, succeed in establishing welfare states. Socialism is a conservative force, dedicated to defending entitlements built up over a century. Meanwhile, organised labour is only strongly entrenched in the public sector. This gives it the same conservative agenda: defending the welfare state. Strikes by UK public sector workers against the fiscal cuts will demonstrate this.

If the traditional left offers no answer, can the free market right return to business as usual? No. People who believe in the marriage of democratic politics with market economics need to address what has happened. They need to do so, above all, because there are darker forms of politics waiting in the wings: nationalism, chauvinism and racism. That is what happens when the conventional elites fail and frustration takes over. We do not need to watch this tragedy again.

The response to the crisis among those in the pro-market camp is much on the lines of the 1930s. On one side are those who blame what has gone wrong entirely on government. The Tea Party, in the US, has taken that position, with some success. In the UK, this strand is weaker. But there, too, some argue that the crisis is the result of Gordon Brown’s fiscal incontinence, over-regulated markets or incompetent central banks. In this, they follow the Austrian economists, Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek, in the 1930s. Against them are those who, following John Maynard Keynes, argue for a managed capitalism.

Once again, much of this debate is over use of macroeconomic policy tools: should one tighten or loosen fiscal policy in a recession? Are unconventional monetary policies a path to hyperinflation or effective policies in extreme circumstances? Again, just as radical Keynesians emerged in the 1930s and afterwards, proponents of more intervention in markets are now emerging.

This is a debate we need. In my view, both perspectives are useful. The Tea Party is wrong on the future of government. Even the US is not going back to the 19th-century state. But its more coherent members are right – and even agree with today’s protesters – that we have promoted an insider form of capitalism which exploits and indeed creates subsidies and tax loopholes on which the insiders prosper. The need to rescue banks was horrifying. The role of money in politics is disturbing. The danger is that we are moving from what the Nobel laureate economic historian,
Douglass North, calls an “open-access order” to its opposite, a system in which political influence is decisive.

This is not merely inefficient. It is unjust. Few begrudged Steve Jobs his fortune. The view on those who emerged rich from rescued businesses is very different. The era of bail-outs must end. Restructuring finance to make this credible is of huge importance for the future. Yet this is not all. Market capitalism creates inherent difficulties. The two most obvious are macroeconomic instability and extremes of inequality. The tendency of a market-oriented financial system to run away with itself has, again, been demonstrated on a large scale. On the free market right people argue that if only we went back to the gold standard or ended fractional reserve banking, all would be well. I question such claims. Instability is inherent in the game of betting on the future. Humans seem prone to self-fulfilling waves of optimism and pessimism. Ways of mitigating the extent and the consequences of such instability always need to be found.

It is impossible to define an acceptable level of inequality. Any inequality is corrosive if those with wealth are believed to have rigged the game rather than won in honest competition. As inequality rises, the sense that we are equal as citizens weakens. In the end, democracy is sold to the highest bidder. That has happened often before in the history of republics. Peaceful protest is the right of free people. More important, it is a way to bring issues to our attention. The left does not know how to replace the market. But pro-marketeers still need to take the protests seriously. All is not well.


You can agree, or not, with Wolf but he makes a few points well, in my opinion:

1. The era of bail-outs must end. Restructuring finance to make this credible is of huge importance for the future;

2. The tendency of a market-oriented financial system to run away with itself has, again, been demonstrated on a large scale;

3. Ways of mitigating the extent and the consequences of such instability [when the financial systems runs away with itself] always need to be found; and

4. It is impossible to define an acceptable level of inequality. Any inequality is corrosive if those with wealth are believed to have rigged the game rather than won in honest competition.

I agree, fundamentally, with all those points; I'm not sure Wolf and I would agree on how to best address them all.

Wolf ends by saying, "Peaceful protest is the right of free people. More important, it is a way to bring issues to our attention." I agree, but the 'right' to protest brings with it a 'duty' to accept the consequences which may include arrest and even imprisonment if one breaks the law. We recall the courage of e.g. the civil rights demonstrators in the USA in the 1950s who did indeed suffer the full weight of (often unjust) law, but they did no cheerfully, indeed even enthusiastically because they wanted to show us that they were taking big risks to expose big issues. I do not find such a sense in the 2011 "occupiers," indeed they are much more like spoiled children than they are like Martin Luther King.
 
OK, now I have been following the OWS since it started...mostly waiting for the hammer to drop on them (and being largely disappointed I must say), but there are a few things I do not understand. I am not an economist (or even an economics student), my degree consisted of anything that sounded cool that would get me my degree (which, ironically, should place me with the OWSers, however, I was sent to school to get a degree, of a certain type, for the job I already had. I didn't take a useless degree without any job prospects). Besides, who wouldn't take a course in Weapons of Mass Destruction if they had the chance? ;D

1: Why are protests happening here? There appear to be fewer of the economic pressures in Canada, than in say, Greece, France or the US itself. Is that why most Canadian based protests have been allowed to continue, because the authorities believe it will just "go away" once the winter hits and the university drop outs run out of their war funds?

2: What are the differences in our financial system(s) here in Canada that we did not see the same extent of corporate bailouts as in the States? Other than the domestic automakers, who else did we actually bailout? I'm not talking "stimulus money" here, straight bailouts. And didn't we get the money back from GM at least? Or was that more lies, damn lies and statistics?

If anyone could shed some light on this for me, I would appreciate it. I understand what they are saying, but the whole 99% thing just doesn't work for me with the way our income tax laws are. Once that tidbit is disposed of, what do they have left?

Thanks.

Wook
 
Wookilar said:
2: What are the differences in our financial system(s) here in Canada that we did not see the same extent of corporate bailouts as in the States?

Wook, the biggest difference between the Canadian and US systems is that the Canadian system is well regulated, and such regulations are enforced. And said regulations do not smother the business environment.

The US system to some may be over regulated, but the events of 2008 prove otherwise. And what regulations that were in place that could have prevented the collapse were not enforced, even when bright flashing neon arrows were pointing to violations so obvious even  the deaf, dumb and blind kid from Tommy would have been slapping his forehead.

Or so I've heard. ;D
 
Wookilar said:
1: Why are protests happening here? There appear to be fewer of the economic pressures in Canada, than in say, Greece, France or the US itself. Is that why most Canadian based protests have been allowed to continue, because the authorities believe it will just "go away" once the winter hits and the university drop outs run out of their war funds?

Solidarity?

In all seriousness, it seems like many of our people, regardless of political stripes, have a very uncritical attitude to the latest fashions coming of the United States.
 
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