The "Occupy" Movement

[Fishbone Jones]

On this particular issue, I am not disagreeing with him. But I am disagreeing with the way he's debating, and this is not an isolated event. I don't think it's in good faith to just brush off other people's evidence/statistics as "lies" and consider your own perspective to trump facts.

Your not a lawyer yet, so don't try act like one. I never called Rick's stats 'lies'. I simply stated that well worn shoe that has been stated about stats forever.

You know, the one popularized by Mark Twain and attributed to PM Benjamin Disraeli? Where MT said "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Try to purposely misconstrue a post and troll it to raise shit again and I'll hit the Report to Mod button for you.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

HM,

I'm sure your doing the best you can and are to be applauded for it.

I've given the best advise I can, as I see it.

Perhaps a financial planner could help you out. Most banks are willing to help.

Good luck.

 

[ballz]

My facts come from an intimate daily interaction with Canadian employers. From mom and pop gas stations that employ a couple of people to multi national conglomerates that employ many thousands in one complex. I'm in them every day and I deal with the people both at the very top in the corner offices to the new hire on the floor.

I know of what I speak. I really don't care if you believe what I say or not, but my info isn't put together by some disconnected statistician thousands of miles away, that makes a report garnered from selective questions based on the answer they want to give. My information is topical, timely and right from the horse's mouth(s).

Which horse? As AR has pointed out, there's two sides to this story. You only speak to one of them, and you don't want to hear from the other.

More importantly, again, I am not specifically talking about this topic. As I already said, I don't disagree with your point of view on this topic, so whether your are "in the know" on this topic is irrelevant to me.

You don't have first-hand information or perspective on every topic, but this is far from the first time you've used your "lies and statistics" quote. Quite frankly, I think you just pull that out whenever you don't like what you hear. It must be nice to be able to pick and choose between which facts are factual just by waving your magic wand and making it so. I know it's a well-used analogy, but you simply use it to brush off whatever you don't like to hear. That's not debating/discussing in good faith. It's childish.

I simply stated that well worn shoe that has been stated about stats forever.

That's not how I saw it, you used it to brush off his statistics without actually having to answer to them. And what's worse is you then asked him to present you with "facts" afterwards. Just calling it as I see it.

Try to purposely misconstrue a post and troll it to raise crap again and I'll hit the Report to Mod button for you.

I'm not trying to troll or raise crap for the sake of raising crap. I take issue with the way you debate things (dismissing other people's facts/evidence on a whim) and I'm addressing it. Hit the "Report the Mod" button if you want.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And given our track record, what you think is totally irrelevant to me.

Perhaps now that you've had your hissy fit, we can get back to what this thread is about and you can quit taking it off course.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

HM,

I'm sure your doing the best you can and are to be applauded for it.

I've given the best advise I can, as I see it.

Perhaps a financial planner could help you out. Most banks are willing to help.

Good luck.

I've gone through the thread, and don't see any HM....so I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that your post applies to me.

I appreciate the advice, and condescension.

As an anecdote:
-I used to be super-fuckin-fat.....like 310 lbs on 6' 3" ....fat as a motherfucker.

That's fat.

So I got healthy....it was friggin' easy.
(no donuts/fast food/mr. noodle).
Then...I ran the rest of that shit out....(TOO EASY).

As a former fatty....I have no sympathy for current fatties.
(I lost weight, why can't you?)

It's an easy thing to hate on, and an easy thing to change, (just don't eat).


For poor-ass folks.....you can't just say, "get rich".
It's not the same kettle of fish.

A change in lifestyle is easy if the change in question won't make your family homeless.

It's all well and good to say, "Perhaps a financial planner could help you out."

With what?
He's going to hire us?........We barely get by, but we do it by working hard, and not wanting "handouts".

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hey, sorry I tried to help and I was serious not condescending.

Like I said, good luck anyway.

We're done.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Magnanimous.

Neat.

 

[Infanteer]

Skinny.

Neat.

 

[George Wallace]

This I agree with, and understand.
I'm a "30 something Canadian with wife and kids ".

I have a job thay pays alright...(somewhere around Cpl II pay, for reference), but it's a nowhere job.

I have the smarts to go into University, and get a degree....enabling me to progress even further.
I know it's one of the only investments that will ever pay, but there ain't no cash to get there.

I have a mortgage.....one car to pay for, (the other one's paid) private school for the kid, (because the wife works there, and tuition's cheaper than before and after school care).....and a wife that nets a $700 paycheque.....

I could get a massive student loan to go to school, sure.....but what about providing for my family for that four years?

WHERE THE frig IS THE MONEY SUPPOSED TO COME FROM?!?!?!?


This is why I think the "just go to school" argument is such a ridiculous, bullshit line.

Not to be to incompassionate, but this post bothers me.  My Grandfather travelled the "rails" in the 1930's looking for work all across Canada.  He was a Master Carpenter and went where there was work.  He and my Grandmother raised a family of four children in the meantime.  Times were rough, but he managed.  Today we have people of the "Mcdonald's Generation" who want to get everything handed to them on a platter, no work necessary.  By that I mean that they are not willing to put the effort into finding the work that will sustain them.  If you are in a job that is not satisfying and/or not providing you with the necessary income; find a job that will, or get a second or third job.  Sitting back and crying that life isn't providing you with the income that can support you does nothing to improve your situation and garners no sympathy from 99% of the population. 

Having been in the CF for some time, and travelling around the country, I have witnessed the cases of the "Single Moms looking for a young Army guy" and the "Professional Welfare cases" of third generation Welfare recipients.  These people have preyed on the System for the last four or five decades and are a drain on our Socialist Systems.  As one who has worked for a living to earn what I have, I see no reason my meager earnings/Taxes should go to support these people and I have no sympathy for leeches of the System.  Many of these "Occupy" movement fit into that category. 

Yes, there are others, however, who are honest victims and fit into the category of "should be institutionalized" as they are suffering from mental problems.  These fill in the masses, but don't have the capacity of the Leeches to organize.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Not to be to incompassionate, but this post bothers me.  My Grandfather travelled the "rails" in the 1930's looking for work all across Canada.  He was a Master Carpenter and went where there was work.  He and my Grandmother raised a family of four children in the meantime.  Times were rough, but he managed.  Today we have people of the "Mcdonald's Generation" who want to get everything handed to them on a platter, no work necessary.  That sure as hell isn't me. I've moved from a crappy-paying job I Loved, to a horrible job that pays...(because I have a family to provide for).  By that I mean that they are not willing to put the effort into finding the work that will sustain them.  If you are in a job that is not satisfying and/or not providing you with the necessary income; find a job that will, or get a second or third job.  I had a shitty-paying job, and decided to get a second one, I joined the Reserves, and didn't get paid by them often enough that I had to stop going.....and then I went the hell out there and found a better paying job. So please stop trying to color me as some sort of hippy-occupy-welfare-bum. I earn my living.

Sitting back and crying that life isn't providing you with the income that can support you does nothing to improve your situation and garners no sympathy from 99% of the population.
I sure as hell am not doing that....and if you think I am, you are sorely mistaken. I have a job that allows me to pay my bills. My point was, a normal, working-class person DOES NOT HAVE THE MEANS to just "drop everything", and go to university.
Why is that so hard to understand for everyone?(And I've still not received any insight as to how someone would make things work (financially) in that situation.)

Having been in the CF for some time, and travelling around the country, I have witnessed the cases of the "Single Moms looking for a young Army guy" and the "Professional Welfare cases" of third generation Welfare recipients.  These people have preyed on the System for the last four or five decades and are a drain on our Socialist Systems.  As one who has worked for a living to earn what I have, I see no reason my meager earnings/Taxes should go to support these people and I have no sympathy for leeches of the System.  Many of these "Occupy" movement fit into that category. 

I find these people (as described above) abhorrent, and disgusting, that is why I'm not one of them.  Why the hell am I getting lumped in with them?

Yes, there are others, however, who are honest victimsand fit into the category of "should be institutionalized" as they are suffering from mental problems.  These fill in the masses, but don't have the capacity of the Leeches to organize.

Skinny.

Neat.

I was trying to provide an example of "just pulling up the bootstraps", and getting something done.
I don't see the point of the snide comment.
Congrats, though.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The problem with individual stories is that the 99% (and there is a such a thing) is simply too large and too diverse to allow for any consideration of any individual situation. Every single individual, even one who is like 1,000,000 others is, effectively, sui geneis when measured against the other 6.99 Billion.

When measured on a global, historical scale we can see that never, not in all of human history, have we been more equal and more upwardly mobile than in the 21st century. A billion Chinese and a billion Indians, most of whom are on the economic rise, simply make the global data swamp the Americans' situation, where I agree that inequality is problematical, and even the Canadians, where it is less of a problem. And the billions of Asians matter more than the few million Americans because their rise gives us new markets for our resources, for our services and for our creativity, our inventiveness.

Consider, please, that the first industrial revolution, the British one in the 18th and early 19th centuries, was based, solidly on wool and then, later, cotton - the traditional sources of British wealth, Then, in the 19th century, the Germans upset the British apple-cart by producing what people wanted (chemicals) rather than what the British though they should want (textiles). The British did respond to the challenge by selling "services" (banks and insurance, the famous "invisible exports") but the "good" high paying, low skill, (eventually unionized) factory jobs migrated away from Britain and to the continent and to America. In due course the continental European coal mines closed because the steel mills went to Korea, along with the sip building jobs ... ditto for America. But Germany, especially, and America did respond: Germany captured and secured (by protectionist trade policies enacted by the EU) the (large) European market for itself and it joined America in inventing and in selling more and better services. But the size and, more important shape of the American, British and German and now Japanese labour markets are much different than they were 200, 100 and even 50 years ago.

The fact, and I believe it is an indisputable fact, is that inequality is a problem in America - not the biggest problem not the worst problem, just a problem - but it is NOT a global problem and the people who are doing more and more to run the global system are shaking their heads at the "occupiers."

 

[a_majoor]

There are a wide variety of on line and part time educational opportunities now, which can be fit in to limited time/budgets. There may also be various forms of financial support available (loans/grants/bursaries)

Never say never

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

There are a wide variety of on line and part time educational opportunities now, which can be fit in to limited time/budgets. There may also be various forms of financial support available (loans/grants/bursaries)

Never say never

That is an excellent point.
That's how, (if I should ever pull my head out of my ass), I would proceed with getting an education, and yet be able to provide for my family at the same time.

 

[Journeyman]

Never say never

Or, at the very least, avoid going on and on about it here; repetition doesn't make a point any more convincing -- especially to an audience that clearly holds a differing point of view.

Maybe now, take a look at the video posted a few days back.


While it's playing, viewers are still free to wring their hands and gnash their teeth at the unfairness of it all.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Or, at the very least, avoid going on and on about it here; repetition doesn't make a point any more convincing -- especially to an audience that clearly holds a differing point of view.....

Actually, I hold the same point of view as most in this thread.
I do not paint myself with any sort of "99%" brush.
I  hate the hippy-occupy-"gimme gimme gimme" idiots as much as anyone else......and do not identify with them at all.

So do not lump me in with them.

 

[Journeyman]

So do not lump me in with them.

Rest assured, it was not aimed solely at you.





If it was, I would have mentioned opportunity costs of time on Army.ca/making beer belts versus improving education/seeking better employment, but that would be personal and sarcastic -- and that's just not me. 

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

If it was, I would have mentioned opportunity costs of time on Army.ca/making beer belts versus improving education/seeking better employment, but that would be personal and sarcastic -- and that's just not me. 

As always, a spectacular contribution,  but I already wound my neck back in after reading, agreeing with, and replying to this post;

There are a wide variety of on line and part time educational opportunities now, which can be fit in to limited time/budgets. There may also be various forms of financial support available (loans/grants/bursaries)

Thanks though.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Is this thread going anywhere??

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Is this thread going anywhere??

I thought it was, until I pissed in everyone's cornflakes, and participated in a derail.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[Danjanou]

Is this thread going anywhere??

Not really, but then again that seems appropriate because neither is the occupy movement itself.  8)