The "Occupy" Movement

[Jungle]

I don't mind playing the game. But I won't piss in your face and tell you it's raining. I'm cheating and getting rewarded for it. I'd prefer to be rewarded for working hard. 

I worry that our system will devolve into theirs. You are born or marry into opportunity. Hard work is meaningless. Connections decide your entire life. I want the old work hard and get ahead days.

Then be an example to your kids: get a job and work hard.

Ohh... I get it: you want to keep your easy life, but you want the hard work for the others...  :

 

[GR66]

You are born or marry into opportunity. Hard work is meaningless. Connections decide your entire life. I want the old work hard and get ahead days.

When exactly were these mythical old days where your birthright and connections didn't mean more than the amount of work you did?  Modern, western, capitalist society likely offers the greatest levels of opportunity for changing the situation you were born into than any other period in human history.  Not everyone has the same opportunities, but at least in our society those that have the fortitude to try and seize on the opportunities that do present themselves at least have the chance to make a better life for themselves. 

 

[Journeyman]

When exactly were these mythical old days.....

Shhhhhhh...ideologues, of any persuasion, don't do very well with actual facts.

It's so much easier to just parrot the buzz-words of your preferred saviour -- whether Marx and Foucault or Limbaugh and Beck -- than to actually think through their ravings prescriptions, and how they'd be applied, within the context of modern reality.

 

[Nemo888]

But those chances are significantly less than when I was a boy. I always hoped things would get better in terms of opportunity and the ability to transcend the class you were born in. Things are going the wrong way in that respect. Being a cheater and making some guy slave for me in a factory on some island 8000 miles away is much more profitable per unit of work than my civilian job. I can make someone poor to make myself rich.

Yet in my regular hard working job the managers are slowly making plans for outsourcing to save on labour costs and break the union.  Not much opportunity here. So I went overseas to become part of the problem. This is how the game is played.  Not the game I want to play. There are almost no rules in the current system. I've broken no laws. Filled out all the required forms and requested the necessary licenses. I don't plan on throwing my kids future away on an ideal that no one else seems to share.  At least I am willing to admit it.  Too bad for the losers who will have to work their asses off without the opportunities I have. 

I expect a bigger supplier to notice I'm eating his lunch soon. Then he can either buy an exclusive license from the factory for this territory or contract to buy 100% of his production. Unless I can do it first of course.

Just because this is how the system works doesn't mean there are not alternatives. The myth that we are at the pinnacle of human development is just that, a myth. Can't we have a more fair and equitable system?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Can't we have a more fair and equitable system?

No.  To pretend otherwise is to be utterly blind to human nature.

You have two fairly stark choices in life: Make your own way and recognize that things will not always work out perfectly or with certainty.  Or you can live in system where someone else tells you what "fair" is and allocates those resources to your needs that "they" deem necessary. 

Take your pick.

 

[Nemo888]

I hope someday you are proved wrong. That honour, fairness and empathy are stronger than our jaded views .  I fear we get the system we deserve.

 

[GR66]

Being a cheater and making some guy slave for me in a factory on some island 8000 miles away is much more profitable per unit of work than my civilian job. I can make someone poor to make myself rich.

How exactly are you forcing these workers to produce your product?  Are they willingly passing on other, better opportunities to work in the factories that supply you?  No doubt by our standards what they earn is pitifully small and the amount of work that they have to do would be refused by most in our society.  This however is a sign of the vast difference in wealth and development between the country of production and the country of consumption.  Without this differential we wouldn't buy anything from them and they wouldn't even have that meagre income potential.

You may define this as exploitation, but it can be the primary source of development capital in less developed countries.  Slowly but surely this influx of foreign money DOES have a broad general influence in improving the state of the economy in those countries.  When I was young Japan, Taiwan and South Korea were the low-cost labour pools to produce our disposable items.  Now look at them compared to their neighbours.  China was later, but even now as the standard of living there (very slowly) begins to increase there we are looking at alternative, lower-cost producers (Vietnam, Indonesia, etc).  However, now they have much better opportunities to fulfill their own (increasing) domestic demand with the tools, skills and capital that came to them through the earlier "exploitive" trade.

 

[Edward Campbell]

How exactly are you forcing these workers to produce your product?  Are they willingly passing on other, better opportunities to work in the factories that supply you?  No doubt by our standards what they earn is pitifully small and the amount of work that they have to do would be refused by most in our society.  This however is a sign of the vast difference in wealth and development between the country of production and the country of consumption.  Without this differential we wouldn't buy anything from them and they wouldn't even have that meagre income potential.

You may define this as exploitation, but it can be the primary source of development capital in less developed countries.  Slowly but surely this influx of foreign money DOES have a broad general influence in improving the state of the economy in those countries.  When I was young Japan, Taiwan and South Korea were the low-cost labour pools to produce our disposable items.  Now look at them compared to their neighbours.  China was later, but even now as the standard of living there (very slowly) begins to increase there we are looking at alternative, lower-cost producers (Vietnam, Indonesia, etc).  However, now they have much better opportunities to fulfill their own (increasing) domestic demand with the tools, skills and capital that came to them through the earlier "exploitive" trade.

:ditto: and +300 MilPoints for you.

 

[Danjanou]

Then be an example to your kids: get a job and work hard.

Ohh... I get it: you want to keep your easy life, but you want the hard work for the others...  :

Or in his own words

blah ....... blah....blah..... blah..... I'm a douche ......blah ....... blah....blah..... blah..... .

 

[Journeyman]

I fear we get the system we deserve.

I hope you're right. You see,

- Some people, displaying initiative and a work ethic, seem quite happy with this current system.

- Some people seem predisposed to wringing hands, gnashing teeth, and rocking back and forth in their Eeyore t-shirts bemoaning the state of the world; they seem to maximize their self-flagellation with this system.

- Some people prefer, and others are required, to let the social safety-net/crutch meet their needs, which this system does.


The only people who miss the "workers paradise" are the university professors and their gullible students who've never seen a callus or blister in their life, and don't seem to realize it never existed. I haven't heard the East Europeans clamouring to bring the Soviets back.

 

[cupper]

Shhhhhhh...ideologues, of any persuasion, don't do very well with actual facts.

It's so much easier to just parrot the buzz-words of your preferred saviour -- whether Marx and Foucault or Limbaugh and Beck -- than to actually think through their ravings prescriptions, and how they'd be applied, within the context of modern reality.

Will you stop trying to bring rational thought into this. >

 

[larry Strong]

I hope you're right. You see,

- Some people, displaying initiative and a work ethic, seem quite happy with this current system.

- Some people seem predisposed to wringing hands, gnashing teeth, and rocking back and forth in their Eeyore t-shirts bemoaning the state of the world; they seem to maximize their self-flagellation with this system.

- Some people prefer, and others are required, to let the social safety-net/crutch meet their needs, which this system does.


The only people who miss the "workers paradise" are the university professors and their gullible students who've never seen a callus or blister in their life, and don't seem to realize it never existed. I haven't heard the East Europeans clamouring to bring the Soviets back.

Amen

 

[vonGarvin]

I haven't heard the East Europeans clamouring to bring the Soviets back.

This reminds me of Christa Wolf, a now-deceased German author, who did most of her works in the former GDR.  She opposed unification with the Federal Republic in 1990, calling instead for a socialist state(read: truly socialist, and not Soviet-puppet).  In other words, this former informant to the state wanted to continue her life in which feeding off the state, much like the parasite that she was.

But, in spite of her calling for a truly socialist paradise, the residents of the German Democratic Republic did the sensible thing and unified with the Federal Republic.  (Good or bad for the former West Germany, it's a much-improved situation for the former East Germany).

 

[dapaterson]

The only people who miss the "workers paradise" are the university professors and their gullible students who've never seen a callus or blister in their life, and don't seem to realize it never existed.

Yes, university profs are completely disconnected from the real world.  Especially those in the social "sciences".  Hint:  If there's no math, it isn't science.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Your first mistake might be the assumption that most people want to work hard and plan for their futures instead of being "kept men" living in the moment.

 

[ArmyRick]

I agree with some of what Nemo888 says. Look at the sickening Wall Street bail outs in 2008. I will not say more, a filthy amount of money to ensure that people at the top of the companies made a larger heap of cash.

Thats just one example.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I agree with some of what Nemo888 says. Look at the sickening Wall Street bail outs in 2008. I will not say more, a filthy amount of money to ensure that people at the top of the companies made a larger heap of cash.

Thats just one example.

Except that's not a product of capitalism, it's a product of cronyism, something that socialists and capitalists both despise. Let's stay on topic, without the strawman, shall we?

 

[a_majoor]

In a way, it is the topic.

In the US, the Democrat party came out firmly in support of the "Occupy" movement, with even the President expressing sympathy for the movement. This was a very cynical attempt to deflect attention away from the rampant cronyism of this administration; the 1% narrative works so long as you don't stop and see who the 1% are and how they are getting their money.

The incoherent message(s) and the actual activities of the Occupy movement changed a lot of people's minds about supporting them in a real hurry, and as a narrative it backfired, since the right wing blogosphere gleefully started highlighting the crony nature of the 1%. You notice that there is no resurgence of the Occupy movement in most places this year, even with the return of nice "camping" weather...

 

[ArmyRick]

I don't have the proof but a gut feeling....so take my comments for what it is worth.

There are lots of lazy dirt bags out there who don't want to work and love the occupy movement, it's the modern day "hippy-ism".

But there are lots of people that are skilled/unskilled alike with terrific work ethic that are having a terrible time getting/holding onto a job. We have discussed this before. Please, no ten second emotional replies about "all they have to do...blah, blah, blah..."

You are not living that in that persons life and don't know all the factors. The reality these days are, is there are more people unemployed than whats been in awhile. Industry in Canada is shrinking and thats partially our own fault. The gap between the "haves" and "have nots" is getting larger. An aging baby boomer population is changing the demograph of the Canadian economy and lifestyle. The future is very cloudy for many people.

I refer to the 2008 wall street bail outs (yes it was in the USA but what happens down here on that scale, influences things up here, Canada is not in a bubble) because it shows an example of disgusting greed and money grabbing by top of the money chain individuals (One dude paid himself 470 million dollars for his performance pay after the bail out, fooking disgusting using american tax money up like that).

I fear that things will get uglier before they get better. Has anybody looked at the "occupy movement" as a warning or a symptom of something bigger happening or about to come?

 

[Nemo888]

What good are those skills when I can hire someone with the same skills and a BSc in Asia for 10$ a day. Most of the jobs being created here are service industry and pay close to minimum wage. In the US the number of jobs is rising but the total tax revenue is steadily dropping.(The jobs are crap.)

Our trade deficit is over 10 billion a year now. Think of what that would be without the 50 billion in oil exports per year. Thank God for petro dollars.

I don't see how an economy can work without manufacturing stuff. So occupy/civil unrest is just beginning as things are not going to get any better. When in Asia I was fascinated how my bits of paper from Canada could buy me anything I dreamed of. Eventually they will wake up and not want useless bits of paper. Then we will have to make our workers compete with 10$ a day. Wages need to drop. Things will be a mess during the transition when the majority of the working class have no useful work and no longer have the buying power to drive the economy.

I'm lucky enough to be able to invest in Asia now to escape the failing economy here. It  doesn't feel fair but I can make more money doing that than working. Don't have much choice since where I work has telegraphed that outsourcing plans will be completed in about 3 to 4 years. I should be enjoying my capitalist savvy, but I want the country I grew up in. I want to work for my wages, but that seems to be for suckers in the current system.  In a few years I will be outsourced for a second time in my life. If I was young I would be pissed. What opportunity is there? (Other than joining the army or police to quell the coming civil unrest/domestic terrorists.  > )