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The political disconnect with our military

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
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No wonder there is so little serious and sensible discussion in the House of Commons. Buffoons indeed (cf. Denis the Thug and a certain "arms dealer"):
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/features/article.jsp?content=20070510_095115_8924

Only a few have served
A time when many MPs had experienced life in the military first-hand has ended, seemingly overnight

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=9e5be33a-9545-4a85-816c-f1356c083af8

Sir Frederick Borden, Canada's minister of militia in the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, learned while sitting in the House of Commons in 1900 that his only son, Harold -- a 23-year-old medical student -- had been shot and killed in South Africa during the Boer War.

A century later, with Canada fighting another foreign war, it seems difficult to imagine any politician in Ottawa grieving the loss of a son or daughter in Afghanistan, or worrying about the safety of a loved one there.

For most of Canada's history, members of Parliament understood in very personal terms the meaning of military sacrifice. Until quite recently, it was common for the country's political, corporate and intellectual elites to have spent time in the military, or to have family members who served, and even died, in uniform.
Quebec MP Harold Baker was killed in France during the First World War. His statue is in the foyer of the House of Commons.

Today, on the first anniversary of the decision to extend Canada's mission in Afghanistan to 2009, only a handful of the MPs who cast votes have personal ties to the Canadian Forces. None, as far as CanWest News Service can determine, is sharing directly in the burdens of Afghanistan...

The official parliamentary website shows that only 16 of the 399 MPs and senators -- four per cent -- have any military experience themselves...

Among Liberals who once sat in the cabinets of Paul Martin or Jean Chretien -- the cabinets that first sent Canadians to Afghanistan -- no one but Art Eggleton, now a senator, claims any military experience.

Consider how times have changed:

In 1957, more than a third of all sitting MPs and senators had spent time in uniform, many of them in the Second World War. As recently as 1979, 27 per cent of all members had served in the military, compared to only four per cent today. There was a time when military service was considered a civic duty for the political class, or for those aspiring to leadership in government or business...

Mark
Ottawa
 
That certainly explains why so few of them understand how we think...  did it break down how many were lawyers?
 
GreyMatter said:
That certainly explains why so few of them understand how we think...  did it break down how many were lawyers?

I don't think that they need to know how we think.  What they need to know is that every time they call for action in some god-forsaken-s%&@ hole because it's the moral, right or proper thing to do that they are sending living breathing people there to do it. 

They need to realize that every op order has flesh and blood attached to it.  Perhaps every time a motion to send troops is debated in the house the seats in the gallery should be full of soldiers, sailors and airmen.
 
Reccesoldier, I don't think the problem is that the problems spring from them being too callous with your lives.  I think the problem is likely to be the opposite.  I believe, it is precisely because none of them have heard the "crack-thump" that many feel they lack the moral authority to order you to risk your lives. 

Coupled with their real pacifism and hope for a Utopia they are disinclined to take military action of any type.  When they are forced to their misguided optimism causes them to believe that you can be a little bit pregnant.  As long as they are only supplying "beans, bullets and bandages" the enemy won't see them as actually contributing to the war effort and both you and their constituents will continue to be safe.

Short form: none of them have left the cloisters long enough to understand the real world,  they are dedicated optimists who adopt a head in the sand attitude in large part because they can't order you to go somewhere they haven't gone and look at themselves in the mirror in the morning.

That is the real tragedy of having leaders who haven't served. 

Another basic maxim of leadership: "Never ask somebody to do a job you are not prepared to do yourself".  None of our leaders have demonstrated that willingness.  They know it.  They are hamstrung.  They are defensive when challenged on it, citing the importance of civilian oversight.
 
I think it should be manditory that within any given year, 25% of all serving MP's (manditory quota from each party) should have to visit theatres when deployments exceed 1,000 men.

You want to argue for or against something, make sure you've seen it first....and yes, I'm talking to you Taliban Jack!


Matthew.  >:(
 
Kirkhill said:
Reccesoldier, I don't think the problem is that the problems spring from them being too callous with your lives.  I think the problem is likely to be the opposite.  I believe, it is precisely because none of them have heard the "crack-thump" that many feel they lack the moral authority to order you to risk your lives. 

Coupled with their real pacifism and hope for a Utopia they are disinclined to take military action of any type.  When they are forced to their misguided optimism causes them to believe that you can be a little bit pregnant.  As long as they are only supplying "beans, bullets and bandages" the enemy won't see them as actually contributing to the war effort and both you and their constituents will continue to be safe.

Short form: none of them have left the cloisters long enough to understand the real world,  they are dedicated optimists who adopt a head in the sand attitude in large part because they can't order you to go somewhere they haven't gone and look at themselves in the mirror in the morning.

That is the real tragedy of having leaders who haven't served. 

Another basic maxim of leadership: "Never ask somebody to do a job you are not prepared to do yourself".  None of our leaders have demonstrated that willingness.  They know it.  They are hamstrung.  They are defensive when challenged on it, citing the importance of civilian oversight.

I understand where you are coming from but it doesn't fit the facts.  Cretien's Liberal government was in a majority and thought nothing of cutting our defence spending and recruitment while simultaneously increaseing the op tempo 100%.

 
The official parliamentary website shows that only 16 of the 399 MPs and senators -- four per cent -- have any military experience themselves...

Better % representation in parliament than in the population as a whole.

Not just a Canadian problem. I dont recall exact percentages but I seem to recall that the same thing applied as well to congress and the US Senate, at least prior to the 2004 election down there.

I suspect it also applies to the UK

 
Kalatzi said:
The official parliamentary website shows that only 16 of the 399 MPs and senators -- four per cent -- have any military experience themselves...

Better % representation in parliament than in the population as a whole.

Not just a Canadian problem. I dont recall exact percentages but I seem to recall that the same thing applied as well to congress and the US Senate, at least prior to the 2004 election down there.

I suspect it also applies to the UK

I don't think you can put a direct correlation between lack of direct military experience and lack of knowledge about the military. Not all military historians have been in the military, yet many of them understand the military better than most serving members.

I didn't think that there would be more people with military experience in parliament than in the general population, however. That's rather interesting, isn't it?
 
Tommmy Atkins - Rudyard Kipling - suggested reading
Waay back when Centurion was a rank and not a tank...

Had that read to me by the DSM as the intro to my first military history class, as a recruit

The disconnect goes at least as far back as pre-confederation IMHO

So, while we call all talk ....

 
Kalatzi said:
Tommmy Atkins - Rudyard Kipling - suggested reading
Waay back when Centurion was a rank and not a tank...

Had that read to me by the DSM as the intro to my first military history class, as a recruit

The disconnect goes at least as far back as pre-confederation IMHO

So, while we call all talk ....

Psssst, you didn't spell Tommy right. ;)

I didn't know there was history back in those days; you guys were making history! Seriously though, the disconnect seems to have existed ever since they decided to let politicians run the show instead of generals and kings. And even then, the top echelons rarely knew what was actually going on.
 
Thanks for the correction

Waay back when Centurion was a rank and not a tank...

Clarification - used as a figure of speech

Chronologically gifted - but not that much

 
Soldiers tend not to suffer fools lightly.......if at all. Which is probably one good reason why soldiers don't enter politics and surround themselves with them
 
I think there are more than a few causes of the 'disconnect', and not just lack of 'time-in' by politicians. Defence is still, in Canada, considered a 'junior' Cabinet portfolio. In many NATO nations, it is second only to 'Treasury'. Defence is also a potential career-ending move for a politician, as it's got the possibility to go sour in no time flat. As for funding, we're also one of the few NATO nations where Defence's annual budget is true 'discretionary spending' - in that it isn't set in law, and can summarily be hacked and slashed at will/need.

A large and growing number of our citizens, and the politicians who represent them, have never experienced the effects of war on our culture. We're not under any current direct threat of invasion (less potential terrorism - which many are blind to as well), and haven't been for almost two centuries.

WW II is often seen by Canadians with no connection to the military as the last 'Just War'. Since then, Canadians have slowly bought in to the myth of peacekeeping, and our politicians have fostered and promoted this, sometimes as a means to obtain votes, or to milk DND for $$, and sometimes out of a true desire for peace.

Finally, as can be seen on this board, after decades of being second class citizens, we in uniform don't really care to much too much for our politicians, and that attitude extends right up through the organization. It colours the way we have interacted with them, and they know it. Both sides have now become somewhat entrenched in their viewpoints, and it will take some serious efforts to change it.

I truly appreciate those politicians, regardless of their party, who publicly support us, more so those who have made the effort to get out to Kandahar. But I do believe that there are far too many who have carried their Ivory Tower naivety with them from their legal practices or academic exposure.
 
Reccesoldier said:
I understand where you are coming from but it doesn't fit the facts.  Cretien's Liberal government was in a majority and thought nothing of cutting our defence spending and recruitment while simultaneously increaseing the op tempo 100%.

Actually I think that does fit the facts.  I don't think that Chretien and his mob ever wanted to commit troops anywhere.  Their instinct was to run down a "discretionary" institution that gained them few votes in their home ridings.

At the same time geo-political circumstances forced them to not just keep the forces in being but to use them.  (Before anybody goes picking on me for picking on Liberals I will stipulate that Brian Mulroney suffered from the same problem).

Accordingly they were forced by people the didn't like to deploy people they didn't understand or want to places they (the government) didn't want to be and didn't like to be reminded existed. 

It is hard to admit you have to go to someone you just called a parasite and then beg a favour from them.  In this case they wanted the "parasite" to give up its life for a cause they don't truly support.  They were only looking for international Brownie points.  That has been true of virtually all of Canada's Wars - despite the justness of the causes involved for the politicians the cause was less important than the political calculus - advantages conferred or denied.

 
I believe that since the Korean war the Canadian political mindset has been to send Canadian troops
to various international crisis where they would not likely to be called on to fight,mostly UN ops..
This kept us in the game in international politics but did not require any great investment in our
military.Even the NATO commitment was allowed to run down and the only improvements were
made because of political pressure by our allies. Kirkhill has it right, both parties were equally to
blame for this situation but it is to the Conservatives credit that they have stepped up to the plate
to make up for years of neglect,although I do not think it would have happened without A-stan.
                                      Regards
 
Actually, I do not think it would have happened without Harper. There would have been some purchases through the old slow procurement programs, but it basically took Harper, who by the way advocated for rearming the military when he was a Reform MP, to take the political heat of bypassing the system and buying off the shelf.

Afghanistan certainly helped in a big way.
 
GAP said:
Actually, I do not think it would have happened without Harper. There would have been some purchases through the old slow procurement programs, but it basically took Harper, who by the way advocated for rearming the military when he was a Reform MP, to take the political heat of bypassing the system and buying off the shelf.  Afghanistan certainly helped in a big way.

And all these years Ive had to listen to people from other provinces complain about how the Reform Party were a bunch of screwballs and never did anything right...  :nana:
 
time expired said:
I believe that since the Korean war the Canadian political mindset has been to send Canadian troops
to various international crisis where they would not likely to be called on to fight,mostly UN ops..
Micro History Lesson Follows
Close - Longer than that - WWI - Canada had 10% of its population in Uniform.
The conscrption criisi in 1917 was a nigthmare for the Govt. 66,000+ Dead
WWII Govt Government very Casualty averse - Mckenzie King
So we opt for Commonwealth Air Training Plan
No one could foresee the heavy casualties that Bomber Command would sustain
And Garrison Duty - Iceland
Defence of UK
Hong Kong -
Fast Forward to 44 - Combat arms units in desparate shape for replacements
2nd Conscription crisis

Conservatives WWI, Liberals WWII

I suspeect that given the stats at the start of this thread that Parliament, not just the Trudeau ddin't see a big upside and possibly a big downside in Vietnam

Just my opinion

 
Kalatzi said:
... And Garrison Duty - Iceland...

Really?  Never heard of that one.  Can you provide a site or book so I can read up more on this?
 
GreyMatter said:
Really?  Never heard of that one.  Can you provide a site or book so I can read up more on this?
Z" Force
-Under command of: 2nd Canadian Infantry Division
-Formed: Z Force HQ was authorized to form effective 28/Sep/40
-Disbanded: Spring 1941, Authorized to disband effective 1/Dec/40
-Components: Brigade HQ plus The Cameron Highlanders, Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (MG)

The British government pressured Canada to supply a brigade and then a full division to garrison Iceland in the summer of 1940, and Canadian 2nd Infantry Division was temporarily earmarked for that duty. Although the division was routed instead to the UK, a Bde HQ and Royal Regiment of Canada arrived on Iceland 16/Jun/40, while Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal and the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (MG) arrived 9/Jul/40 , the formation as a whole being known as “Z” Force. Two battalions (Royal Regt & Mont Royal) and the HQ moved from Iceland to the UK from 31/10/40 while the third battalion, The Cameron Highlanders, stayed the winter before relief. “Z” Force was disbanded in the April of 1941 and its remaining elements transferred to the UK.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Task_Force

 
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