The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[dapaterson]

Who in turn will blame the Libs for the EH101 fiasco.

Everyone wants a better, more streamlined military procurement system to more efficiently funnel tax dollars to their preferred vendors.

 

[suffolkowner]

Fixed it for you
Cough Blackhawk cough...
MH-60R can do the AWS job,
MH-60G can do SAR/CSAR/CANSOF
UH-60 can do the regular UH role.

and the Liberals could buy them and blame the Conservatives for not getting them originally...

I think the concept of operations for ASW drives the decision for a larger helicopter it would require a change that others here could explain better
Find a Bell comparable that can be built here

When talking EH101, there are both sunk costs already paid, plus cancellation penalties.

With two small bespoke fleets, both reduced by crashes, and problems with supply chains because both are bespoke, it may be time for the CAF to once again try to buy a single fleet, but this time an off the shelf, already in service model... If nothing else, it would boost defence spending.

We slog it out and replace with the SB-1 Defiant?

 

[dapaterson]

Bell 412!

 

[KevinB]

I think the concept of operations for ASW drives the decision for a larger helicopter it would require a change that others here could explain better
Find a Bell comparable that can be built here

Most of the rest of the world does it with the MH-60R, or SH-60 SeaHawk...

Bell 412!

The Helicopter Canada never should have bought...
It can't do Martime stuff well with the skids (as our MH pilots have nicely explained) - and the payload is frightfully poor.

If Bell Miracle could build the UH-1Y Venom, it could solve most of the major issues - but the MH role.


I still think the LocMart/Sik FVL options are more reasonable to look to a pure fleet aspect for a UH/MH bird.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

“That can be built here”

This mentality is part of what slaughters our procurement process (probably an insult to the word process but…).

I like the Blackhawk idea. I also like the Herc for Transport/SAR/MPA idea too.

We don’t consider the most important things with the most weight; operational capability.

That is why we have damn old fighters. Our fighters were sub-standard in GW1. That was 1991.

That is why we have a small orphan fleet of MHs that has some significant challenges.

That is why our tiny LRP fleet is going thru upgrades on aircraft that are 4 decades old, while other countries with small fleets are moving to or already have P-8.

How’s that new FWSAR fleet doing?

It won’t change and our military will never be taken seriously because of it.

 

[KevinB]

Who in turn will blame the Libs for the EH101 fiasco.

Everyone wants a better, more streamlined military procurement system to more efficiently funnel tax dollars to their preferred vendors.

I really don't care about vendor - I care about capability.
Just because something can be built in Canada doesn't mean an inferior item should be adopted - or the CAF required to change specs to make the "preferred" option complaint.

 

[KevinB]

“That can be built here”

This mentality is part of what slaughters our procurement process (probably an insult to the word process but…).

I like the concept of national capacity - but one needs to weigh how that can be done for certain items.
I mean the fact that Miracle builds 412's/Griffons is great, but what use does the Griffon truly offer? It was obsolete before the CAF got it.

I like the Blackhawk idea. I also like the Herc for Transport/SAR/MPA idea too.

Always need more Hercules, triple the fleet would still get used regularly...

We don’t consider the most important things with the most weight; operational capability.

That is what truly kills me - heck if the CAF was awake - they'd have a LO in the PM shop of FVL seeing where Canada can get in.
Probably could use a Wescam ball

That is why we have damn old fighters. Our fighters were sub-standard in GW1. That was 1991.

That is why we have a small orphan fleet of MHs that has some significant challenges.

That is why our tiny LRP fleet is going thru upgrades on aircraft that are 4 decades old, while other countries with small fleets are moving to or already have P-8.

How’s that new FWSAR fleet doing?

It won’t change and our military will never be taken seriously because of it.

Agreed.

 

[kev994]

it may be time for the CAF to once again try to buy a single fleet, but this time an off the shelf, already in service model....

I think we were supposed to have done this with the cyclone and the kingfisher, we’re not very good shoppers.

 

[suffolkowner]

I think we were supposed to have done this with the cyclone and the kingfisher, we’re not very good shoppers.

I guess we can be thankful we didn't buy the NH90 or C27J. Bad luck follows bad decisions pretty much guarantees the gripen will be chosen

 

[Quirky]

I guess we can be thankful we didn't buy the NH90 or C27J. Bad luck follows bad decisions pretty much guarantees the gripen will be chosen

That’ll go over well with pilots wanting to fly the thing…. RCAF will turn into cannon fodder for NATO. Cheaper to send in the Gripens than fire expensive cruise missiles.

 

[dapaterson]

I think we were supposed to have done this with the cyclone and the kingfisher, we’re not very good shoppers.

Cyclone was not in-service with another military.

AERE officers in ADM Mat need to be given negative PER points for every bit of Canadianization they introduce into an aircraft.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess we can be thankful we didn't buy the NH90 or C27J. Bad luck follows bad decisions pretty much guarantees the gripen will be chosen

Can we, though?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Cyclone was not in-service with another military.

AERE officers in ADM Mat need to be given negative PER points for every bit of Canadianization they introduce into an aircraft.

Is it AEREs though or is it DAR?

 

[dapaterson]

Hey, I'm all for equal-opportunity AERE PER processes. PD or PM side..

 

[Quirky]

AERE officers in ADM Mat need to be given negative PER points for every bit of Canadianization they introduce into an aircraft.

Interesting how much non sense of Canadianization they can fit into an F-35.

 

[suffolkowner]

Can we, though?

Well those two haven't been rousing successes anywhere. I guess time will tell if the Cyclone makes the cut. What exactly is the problem with getting the Kingfisher online?

I keep thinking that this would be a good time for the government to announce a F35 decision

 

[SupersonicMax]

What exactly is the problem with getting the Kingfisher online?

Plural. Problems. Many, many of them.

 

[suffolkowner]

Plural. Problems. Many, many of them.

I've heard that but not the whats or the why's

 

[Eye In The Sky]

FWSAR - I’m not directly involved with that fleet so it wouldn’t be for me to say; but I am happy at this point that I didn’t move to that fleet.

Cyclone was not in-service with another military.

AERE officers in ADM Mat need to be given negative PER points for every bit of Canadianization they introduce into an aircraft.

Not just Adm Mat; some at PMO need to appreciate their knowledge limits; CR2.1 being a decent demonstration of operator (OLA, UAG) input being sought as an afterthought and “while the paint was already drying”.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well those two haven't been rousing successes anywhere.

I’ve only really looked at the NFH (NATO Frigate Helicopter) part of the entire NH-90; but I remember exercising with NFHs in the Med in 2015 and later and they seemed to perform well. I think it was Manta 2018 we were supposed to do co-op with a HMCS Hfx class. The Sea King was U/S for sonar.

. I guess time will tell if the Cyclone makes the cut.

If that project wouldn’t have been delayed and off the rails, the Cyclone would likely be close to a mid-life refit with updated sensors and systems. Shouldn’t it have made the cut long ago?