The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[KevinB]

Just to add with regard to concerns that the US might in some way disable or degrade our F-35's.

The God Key was debunked - basically all that could be done is a stop on new software pushes - so new threat profiles for countermeasures wouldn’t upload, or current satellite data links wouldn’t be available.

Still it would remain the second most effective fighter platform in the air (F-22 Master Race)

If they were to do so they would be seriously affecting our ability to defend their Northern border which I can't see them doing.

Yeah would be akin to slitting our own throat. Unless Putin and 47 have some sort of master plan to cut Canada up like Poland, but I think 47 wants control over the Americas which forbids him to share with others.

If in the incredibly tiny chance that they were to do so in support of a military invasion of Canada then frankly it wouldn't matter what type of fighter we have...

That is a fact.

 

[childs56]

Ask the Israelis how the F-35 is working out for them.

Their system is slightly different compared to the majority of builds. So it isn't the same apples to apples, Its like a Ein Shemer to a Granny Smith apple.

Child is simply a F-35 hater. He probably has an Avro Arrow bedspread

Don't hate the plane. But the program is mess overall. Now with LM wanting to add 6th gen products to system that is not 100% operational on promised systems.
I am a multi fleet guy. I do not believe one aircraft can do it all. Nor do I feel we need to send a Stealth Jet to support operations in a low contested airspace if required.
I have said it before We should get 65 or so of the F35 and then 100 of another jet. I would go for the F15, would settle for a New F18 model with all the electronic gear. Would compromise with the newest model of the Gripen with full Weapons and EW suit (use a portion of them for lead in fighter training program) (been looking at the Rafale recently would be ok, maybe the f16 Israeli latest spec).

No matter what we need more then 65 Jets,

 

[GR66]

Their system is slightly different compared to the majority of builds. So it isn't the same apples to apples, Its like a Ein Shemer to a Granny Smith apple.

Don't hate the plane. But the program is mess overall. Now with LM wanting to add 6th gen products to system that is not 100% operational on promised systems.
I am a multi fleet guy. I do not believe one aircraft can do it all. Nor do I feel we need to send a Stealth Jet to support operations in a low contested airspace if required.
I have said it before We should get 65 or so of the F35 and then 100 of another jet. I would go for the F15, would settle for a New F18 model with all the electronic gear. Would compromise with the newest model of the Gripen with full Weapons and EW suit (use a portion of them for lead in fighter training program) (been looking at the Rafale recently would be ok, maybe the f16 Israeli latest spec).

No matter what we need more then 65 Jets,

Curious...what role would you see the 2nd fighter doing that the F-35 couldn't do?

 

[captloadie]

Their system is slightly different compared to the majority of builds. So it isn't the same apples to apples, Its like a Ein Shemer to a Granny Smith apple.

Don't hate the plane. But the program is mess overall. Now with LM wanting to add 6th gen products to system that is not 100% operational on promised systems.
I am a multi fleet guy. I do not believe one aircraft can do it all. Nor do I feel we need to send a Stealth Jet to support operations in a low contested airspace if required.
I have said it before We should get 65 or so of the F35 and then 100 of another jet. I would go for the F15, would settle for a New F18 model with all the electronic gear. Would compromise with the newest model of the Gripen with full Weapons and EW suit (use a portion of them for lead in fighter training program) (been looking at the Rafale recently would be ok, maybe the f16 Israeli latest spec).

No matter what we need more then 65 Jets,

Where would we get the pilots to fly them and the techs to repair these additional 100 aircraft. Every qualified pilot would have his own plan and two spares. And given the sophistication of these new fighters, the Flight Safety risk in hopping from one type to another is too great, unless you dumb down what they are expected to do. Which means you lose all the advantages of having two or more fleets.

 

[KevinB]

Their system is slightly different compared to the majority of builds. So it isn't the same apples to apples, Its like a Ein Shemer to a Granny Smith apple.

It’s minor sensor and comms changes, in some ways it is less capable. But for the IAF it does the job, as it has slightly different requirements than a NATO Air Force

Don't hate the plane. But the program is mess overall.

The program is a mess on the USAF side. Poor setups on their flight science test side with limited flight hours to validate the upgrades

Now with LM wanting to add 6th gen products to system that is not 100% operational on promised systems.

Tech Refresh 3 is operational.

I am a multi fleet guy. I do not believe one aircraft can do it all. Nor do I feel we need to send a Stealth Jet to support operations in a low contested airspace if required.

Generally I agree, however I don’t think that Canada can currently afford two fleets.
Pilots, techs, etc are all limiting factors.

I have said it before We should get 65 or so of the F35 and then 100 of another jet. I would go for the F15, would settle for a New F18 model with all the electronic gear. Would compromise with the newest model of the Gripen with full Weapons and EW suit (use a portion of them for lead in fighter training program) (been looking at the Rafale recently would be ok, maybe the f16 Israeli latest spec).

If Canada could double the RCAF then yes I would agree with the F-15EX option.

No matter what we need more then 65 Jets,

Agreed

 

[Good2Golf]

Curious...what role would you see the 2nd fighter doing that the F-35 couldn't do?

Fly when the US clamps down on the 35’s supply chain?

 

[childs56]

Curious...what role would you see the 2nd fighter doing that the F-35 couldn't do?

It is not a matter of couldn't do but why send in a stealth jet when a non stealth will do the job fine.
Northern patrol..the Gripen could operate from many of the smaller runways if required.
Training flight hours for pilots.
weapons delivery "aka bomb trucks".
Jamming aircraft.
Peace support missions.
If you are operating the f15,that jet is just scary and could be incorporated in our BMD program. If that thing shows up to the enemy and shows itself they should just tuck tail and head home.

Where would we get the pilots to fly them and the techs to repair these additional 100 aircraft.

Actually start up a Air Reserve Pilot program.

Every qualified pilot would have his own plan and two spares.

Between maintence and waiting on parts more like 1.5 jets for every pilot.

And given the sophistication of these new fighters, the Flight Safety risk in hopping from one type to another is too great, unless you dumb down what they are expected to do.

Disagree. I would like to think our pilots could be certified in more then one aircraft at a time.
Their primary platform would be jet 1 or jet 2. But they could hold certs in multiple.
For example fighter lead in training conducted with the gripen jet. Every pilot is experienced in flying this platform and operating its system.
Forward deploy those up north. Have them staffed by the QRF.
Then utilize the F35 in more of a support role. If the potential enemy starts messing around you send the sneaky jet to literally sneak up in them.

Which means you lose all the advantages of having two or more fleets.

I disagree.

 

[GR66]

Fly when the US clamps down on the 35’s supply chain?

Like the Gripen engines I guess?

 

[Good2Golf]

Like the Gripen engines I guess?

Yup.

Hence why I figure a not-unreasonable option is with a nuclear power that speaks one of our official languages…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Yup.

Hence why I figure a not-unreasonable option is with a nuclear power that speaks one of our official languages…

China?

 

[captloadie]

Actually start up a Air Reserve Pilot program.

Between maintence and waiting on parts more like 1.5 jets for every pilot.

Disagree. I would like to think our pilots could be certified in more then one aircraft at a time.
Their primary platform would be jet 1 or jet 2. But they could hold certs in multiple.
For example fighter lead in training conducted with the gripen jet. Every pilot is experienced in flying this platform and operating its system.
Forward deploy those up north. Have them staffed by the QRF.
Then utilize the F35 in more of a support role. If the potential enemy starts messing around you send the sneaky jet to literally sneak up in them.


I disagree.

Before I better understood the fighter world, I would have agreed with all your points.
Until we are in a real shooting war where everyone becomes expendable, no one will accept the losses or the risks that your proposals would see occur. Flying fighters is as much about muscle memory as anything else. Sure they can fly different types of jets, but they couldn't fight them. Things happen faster than one can consciously take time to process, so the pilots need to think about the tactics while their bodies operate the equipment from memory. From a tech perspective, the same is true in a way. They need to be experts on the systems they are working on, and jumping from one type to the other either slows down the maintenance process, or increases the likelihood of error, leading aircraft accidents.

Many people bring up the Air Reserves as a solution to the pilot and tech problem, but once again, how do you keep someone proficient? How do you convince them to take time away from their great paying civy job and families to put in the time to stay current and proficient? Its not like the Army Reserve where the skill fade takes a little longer, and once the initial training bill is paid, upkeep of the skills are less expensive.

 

[OldSolduer]

Before I better understood the fighter world, I would have agreed with all your points.
Until we are in a real shooting war where everyone becomes expendable, no one will accept the losses or the risks that your proposals would see occur. Flying fighters is as much about muscle memory as anything else. Sure they can fly different types of jets, but they couldn't fight them. Things happen faster than one can consciously take time to process, so the pilots need to think about the tactics while their bodies operate the equipment from memory. From a tech perspective, the same is true in a way. They need to be experts on the systems they are working on, and jumping from one type to the other either slows down the maintenance process, or increases the likelihood of error, leading aircraft accidents.

Many people bring up the Air Reserves as a solution to the pilot and tech problem, but once again, how do you keep someone proficient? How do you convince them to take time away from their great paying civy job and families to put in the time to stay current and proficient? Its not like the Army Reserve where the skill fade takes a little longer, and once the initial training bill is paid, upkeep of the skills are less expensive.

And the same goes for Army stuff.

 

[childs56]

Before I better understood the fighter world, I would have agreed with all your points.
Until we are in a real shooting war where everyone becomes expendable, no one will accept the losses or the risks that your proposals would see occur.

What Risks are there?

Flying fighters is as much about muscle memory as anything else. Sure they can fly different types of jets, but they couldn't fight them.

I disagree that pilots could not fight them.

Things happen faster than one can consciously take time to process, so the pilots need to think about the tactics while their bodies operate the equipment from memory.

Interesting point, but again I disagree. Flying is flying for the most part. The handling characteristics of a aircraft type differ yes. But so does each individual aircraft can and will have their own specific nuances.

From a tech perspective, the same is true in a way. They need to be experts on the systems they are working on, and jumping from one type to the other either slows down the maintenance process, or increases the likelihood of error, leading aircraft accidents.

Disagree completely working between two types should not be that hard. . Most maintenance done is by the book, meaning you should be following a specific check list on that aircraft. Each platform has its own certifications. The AvN Tech has to go to training and get certified on that platform then get signed off on the individual systems of each platform. An engine is an engine, a elevator is a elevator. Except the CF 18 landing gear. That takes a skilled person to figure out that monstrosity of parts thrown together that some how works extremely well until it doesn't (then you hope they have tanks on to absorb the impact).

Many people bring up the Air Reserves as a solution to the pilot and tech problem, but once again, how do you keep someone proficient?

Let them fly. Set up training missions.

How do you convince them to take time away from their great paying civy job and families to put in the time to stay current and proficient?

Let them fly a fighter jet at MACH 1 and have them contour fly then drop some bombs and firing a missile once in a while.

Its not like the Army Reserve where the skill fade takes a little longer, and once the initial training bill is paid, upkeep of the skills are less expensive.

That is your opinion. Skill fade happens all over. I don't want some Gunner pulling a lanyard on a Danger Close mission who has had skill fade and cant remember Co-ordinated fires are crucial to the success of the mission. I get what you are saying,. But you get a Pilot flying on days off getting to do the cool stuff and I think you would be surprised how good they can be.

 

[SupersonicMax]

All right. I was once fully qualified on four different aircraft types (Hornet, Tutor, Alphajet and Harvard II). I regularly flew the Hornet and the Tutor, and 2-3 times a month the others. I could easily jump in the Hornet and the Tutor without issues but needed checklists to fly the other two. There is no way I would have been able to maintain tactical proficiency on two different fighters without a significant time investment, moreso than I am willing to spend. Maintaining tactical proficiency requires a lot of work in the books, to fully understand systems and tactics (almost always in rooms with no windows), flying simulator missions to practice them in a more controlled environment and a lot of flying to consolidate the knowledge and skills in a more missionized environment,

Could I maintain a currency (ie: stay safe) on two different figters? Yes. I think this is true for most experienced fighter pilots. Given the vast differences between how an F-35 and how 4.5 Gen fighters operate, I don’t see how the majority of pilots could remain proficient on two fighters, and those that could would need to invest a lot of time in doing that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

What Risks are there?

I disagree that pilots could not fight them.

Interesting point, but again I disagree. Flying is flying for the most part. The handling characteristics of a aircraft type differ yes. But so does each individual aircraft can and will have their own specific nuances.

Disagree completely working between two types should not be that hard. . Most maintenance done is by the book, meaning you should be following a specific check list on that aircraft. Each platform has its own certifications. The AvN Tech has to go to training and get certified on that platform then get signed off on the individual systems of each platform. An engine is an engine, a elevator is a elevator. Except the CF 18 landing gear. That takes a skilled person to figure out that monstrosity of parts thrown together that some how works extremely well until it doesn't (then you hope they have tanks on to absorb the impact).

Let them fly. Set up training missions.

Let them fly a fighter jet at MACH 1 and have them contour fly then drop some bombs and firing a missile once in a while.

That is your opinion. Skill fade happens all over. I don't want some Gunner pulling a lanyard on a Danger Close mission who has had skill fade and cant remember Co-ordinated fires are crucial to the success of the mission. I get what you are saying,. But you get a Pilot flying on days off getting to do the cool stuff and I think you would be surprised how good they can be.

I don’t think that you even remotely understand the issues involved.

 

[Quirky]

Most maintenance done is by the book, meaning you should be following a specific check list on that aircraft.

It’s not that simple. If it was all checklists we could just hire minimum wage TFW to follow them.

An engine is an engine, a elevator is a elevator.

No, it’s not.

 

[KevinB]

No, it’s not.

I mean what could you possibly know just working on them for your job and all

 

[YZT580]

Many people bring up the Air Reserves as a solution to the pilot and tech problem, but once again, how do you keep someone proficient? How do you convince them to take time away from their great paying civy job and families to put in the time to stay current and proficient? Its not like the Army Reserve where the skill fade takes a little longer, and once the initial training bill is paid, upkeep of the skills are less expensive.

You keep them proficient by letting them fly which means access to a simulator for much of it and enough hours in the air to solidify the lessons from the sim. Where do you get them? Offer a Porter captain the chance to fly an F18 today with someone else footing the bill and he will jump at it. Flying a DH8 between TZ and OW 3 times a week is just a job but a fast mover is every pilot's wet dream

 

[calculus]

Even more reason to stick with the full order of F35s - Lockheed has a raft of NGAD developed tech they are proposing to incorporate into the plane, bringing it to Gen 5+ standard. Lots of life in this program.

Lockheed wants to turn F-35 into a ‘Ferrari’ with sixth-gen tech

Better passive infrared, stealth and longer-range weapons are among the sixth-generation technologies Lockheed might incorporate into the F-35.

www.defensenews.com

More on this:

Giving F-35 "NASCAR Upgrade" Can Deliver 80% Of F-47 Capabilities At Half Cost: Lockheed

Lockheed doubles down on the Joint Strike Fighter after its F-47 loss with plans to inject 6th generation capabilities into the F-35's 'chassis.'

www.twz.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

All right. I was once fully qualified on four different aircraft types (Hornet, Tutor, Alphajet and Harvard II). I regularly flew the Hornet and the Tutor, and 2-3 times a month the others. I could easily jump in the Hornet and the Tutor without issues but needed checklists to fly the other two. There is no way I would have been able to maintain tactical proficiency on two different fighters without a significant time investment, moreso than I am willing to spend. Maintaining tactical proficiency requires a lot of work in the books, to fully understand systems and tactics (almost always in rooms with no windows), flying simulator missions to practice them in a more controlled environment and a lot of flying to consolidate the knowledge and skills in a more missionized environment,

Could I maintain a currency (ie: stay safe) on two different figters? Yes. I think this is true for most experienced fighter pilots. Given the vast differences between how an F-35 and how 4.5 Gen fighters operate, I don’t see how the majority of pilots could remain proficient on two fighters, and those that could would need to invest a lot of time in doing that.

One of the issues that might be resolved by a two type fleet is maintenance and flight costs per hour of flight. If we are involved in another Afghanistan, then it would make sense to have a bomb truck with good ordnance load, same level sensors and long endurance, which is much cheaper and easier to maintain. It would also reduce airframe hours on your premium fighters and allow you to keep them focused on tasks they are better suited for. So there might be a good reason to have a smaller fleet of 4.5 gen or dedicated ground attack/bomb truck aircraft for that role. Might also be where you focus your Air Reserve efforts.