The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

Its called 'compromise'

If the price to be paid for getting Quebec inline for a pipeline or two, along with a LNG refinery to be built in/across Quebec is continuing to move forward on the Gun confiscation program, is that a compromise worth doing?

I have no dog in the gun confiscation fight, but if I had to pick 1 - continue as is in the previous gun ownership laws or have 2 pipelines be built across Ontario and Quebec, with one of them results in a new export driven LNG facility in Quebec and the other ending up at the Irving facility in NB - guess which one I'm going to chose to allow to happen and which I'm not.

Which of these results in a 'win' for the vast majority of Canadians and which does not? On BOTH sides there are 'losers' but which one drives the most economic gains and has the majority of Canadians behind it?

"If he doesn't give in to every single one of my preferred policy positions, he's useless."

I will never understand people who are so dogmatically partisan.

I think it's remarkable that he's dragging the Liberal Party around on the largest increase in defence spending in generations. Harper didn't do that during wartime and he was Conservative. But why give Carney credit for that when the goalposts can be shifted to talking about gun policy and carbon tarrifs? And we wonder why more good people don't get in to politics. Who the f**k wants to deal with voters like this?

 

[ytz]

As some of you have said, this decision will be purely political (as most things Liberal), so it will not matter about range, combat effectiveness, payload, etc. It will be what optics the Liberals can gain from whatever decision they move forward with.

Nah. Cabinet gets those classified briefings. They know the threat. And they also know what the consequences are, from the US for leaving a large and symbolic program like the F-35.

Here's a prediction. The message will be simple. "It's not practical to restart. We're continuing the purchase." I would include a possible announcement on joining GCAP or FCAS. There's lot of chatter about that in Ottawa. That let's the government say that their next fighter (after the F-35) will definitely not be American.

What will happen next is more important. And that's an effort to direct and prioritize procurement elsewhere away from the US. Especially in areas where it's obvious. See subs and corvettes for the navy. See ordinance. See armoured vehicles and tanks.

I think our Wedgetail buy is in more jeopardy than the F-35.

 

[QV]

"If he doesn't give in to every single one of my preferred policy positions, he's useless."

I will never understand people who are so dogmatically partisan.

I think it's remarkable that he's dragging the Liberal Party around on the largest increase in defence spending in generations. Harper didn't do that during wartime and he was Conservative. But why give Carney credit for that when the goalposts can be shifted to talking about gun policy and carbon tarrifs? And we wonder why more good people don't get in to politics. Who the f**k wants to deal with voters like this?

Let's be real here. The only reason this kind of increased defence spending is maybe a thing is because of the US's threat to wreck our economy if we don't start to contribute like a G7 can.

 

[ytz]

Let's be real here. The only reason this kind of increased defence spending is maybe a thing is because of the US's threat to wreck our economy if we don't start to contribute like a G7 can.

Let's also be real here. He could have done nothing like so many PMs before him. And wouldn't have faced any political consequences for shafting defence. Especially since defence spending is delivering practically zero returns on the trade relationship with the US or Europe.

Here's a simple challenge to you. Can you give the guy credit for a single thing or are you so far gone on your partisanship that everything he does comes with, "But...."?

 

[Remius]

Let's be real here. The only reason this kind of increased defence spending is maybe a thing is because of the US's threat to wreck our economy if we don't start to contribute like a G7 can.

Existential threats tend to get people moving.

Glad you finally see the US as one.

 

[QV]

Of course there is a serious economic threat from the US, that was never in question. Where I argue is our own role in getting here. Canada is not the innocent victim - it has played a part that equally contributed to the present state of things. This is why I don't view the US like some petulant child who was denied their cookie.

 

[ytz]

Existential threats tend to get people moving.

Glad you finally see the US as one.

What's still delusional is that people think Trump cares about defence spending in Canada and will tie economic negotiations to that. People have weird ideas they project. Trump doesn't give a sh*t how much we spend. There's no difference in how he treats countries that spend more or less. What matters is what he can use as a talking point to meet his goals. About the only countries he tends to respect? Those with nukes. UK, France, China, Russia, etc.

The government is trying to use defence spending as a way to boost domestic spending. Particularly industrial and technological development. That's really what it comes down to. It's convenient that it also ends the tradition of us being the bottom of the pack. I actually think this perspective of defence as industrial investment, is a bit unique to Carney having spent time as a senior official in a P5 member government. I am not sure another PM (regardless of jersey colour) would have that perspective.

 

[Remius]

Of course there is a serious economic threat from the US, that was never in question. Where I argue is our own role in getting here. Canada is not the innocent victim - it has played a part that equally contributed to the present state of things. This is why I don't view the US like some petulant child who was denied their cookie.

And we finally have a PM that is doing something about it.

Some are just upset that he is a Liberal.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"If he doesn't give in to every single one of my preferred policy positions, he's useless."

I will never understand people who are so dogmatically partisan.

I think it's remarkable that he's dragging the Liberal Party around on the largest increase in defence spending in generations. Harper didn't do that during wartime and he was Conservative. But why give Carney credit for that when the goalposts can be shifted to talking about gun policy and carbon tarrifs? And we wonder why more good people don't get in to politics. Who the f**k wants to deal with voters like this?

Remind me again where the Gun Control crowd has accepted a compromise?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And we finally have a PM that is doing something about it.

Some are just upset that he is a Liberal.

PET, bought new tanks as well, mainly as he was blackmailed in to it. Chances are I would have voted for Lester Pearson had I been an adult during his time. Carney is somewhat competent, but nothing special and to much of his party is still the same crowd that supported JT till it started to hurt them and the party. They didn't give a sh*t about what they were doing to Canada. Carney's job is to save the Liberal party and keep it in power, if by chance Canada benefits from that, that is icing on the cake.
As for the buys, whoever is in power at this moment would be under the same internal needs and external pressures and would be doing roughly the same. The only outright Liberal defense buy I would give them as independent decision is the acquisition of the MTT Cargo aircraft. Which I am happy to give them full credit for.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Let's be real here. The only reason this kind of increased defence spending is maybe a thing is because of the US's threat to wreck our economy if we don't start to contribute like a G7 can.

So?
If the end result is an enlarged, rearmed, re-engaged potent CAF does it really matter how it got to this point? What should be celebrated is the fact that maybe, just maybe we CAN get to this point.

Maybe people will start to understand that this can only benefit the country, having the semblance of being self-sufficient and able to stand on our own two feet once again. Having some semblance of being able to drive our own agenda and model our own future going forward.

Personally I'm sick of Canadians bitching and complaining about the US and about how 'our government' should be doing this, that and everything else for them.

Too many enfeebled and entitled individuals - whether there are Conservatives who believe that 'less is more' really works, Liberals who want to sit around singing Kouam By Yah or the NDP who want to stifle initiative and the desire to be the best you can and be compensated for it by giving it all away to those that want to contribute the least but gain the most. I've been disgusted by all of them since moving back here 25yrs.

 

[QV]

So?
If the end result is an enlarged, rearmed, re-engaged potent CAF does it really matter how it got to this point? What should be celebrated is the fact that maybe, just maybe we CAN get to this point.

Maybe people will start to understand that this can only benefit the country, having the semblance of being self-sufficient and able to stand on our own two feet once again. Having some semblance of being able to drive our own agenda and model our own future going forward.

Personally I'm sick of Canadians bitching and complaining about the US and about how 'our government' should be doing this, that and everything else for them.

Too many enfeebled and entitled individuals - whether there are Conservatives who believe that 'less is more' really works, Liberals who want to sit around singing Kouam By Yah or the NDP who want to stifle initiative and the desire to be the best you can and be compensated for it by giving it all away to those that want to contribute the least but gain the most. I've been disgusted by all of them since moving back here 25yrs.

I'll celebrate when Canada and all political parties commit to an enduring level of seriousness in national defence. I don't see it yet and I am firmly in the camp that as soon as the pressure is off, so are the good intentions.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'll celebrate when Canada and all political parties commit to an enduring level of seriousness in national defence. I don't see it yet and I am firmly in the camp that as soon as the pressure is off, so are the good intentions.

Very well could be the case.

I've said for decades that no one in the world is as cheap as a Canadian and the country of Canada.

 

[ArmyRick]

If the end result is an enlarged, rearmed, re-engaged potent CAF

Carney version of that
-Awesome pay raises for CAF (Done)
-Move Coast Guard spending to defence (Done)
-Decarbonizing the military (huh?) so I guess wind farms and solar panels all through the training areas and "low carbon HE ammunition (It doesn't explode?)
-Some extra money spent on CAF/DND lands near first nations lands.
-More social awareness training with lots of consultants
-A new "Hate prevention" and "Climate Mitigator" occupations within CAF

Now, hear me out. How about as part of rebuilding and rearming Canada, Carney commits NOW to building a modernized aircraft industry that can start rolling out military and civilian aircraft that are highly sought after by 2035-2045 time frame?

We bought the C295 from Europe to replace our own home made, home designed Buffalo (An excellent aircraft, the US bought them too). Imagine if future aircraft purchases were which Canadian company does it instead of choosing between USA, South Korea and Europe? I know we are not buying aircraft from S.Korea, yet.

 

[Czech_pivo]

On another note, starting to wonder if the delay in the F35 announcement is tied in any way to the HIMARS contract that was supposed to go to Congress before year end 2025 to be rubbered stamped for the sales to friendly foreign government process.

Wonder if Carney is trying to carve that piece of the pie out from the combo package going to Lockheed Martin with the 88 F35's and HIMARS both produced by them. The angle might be that the timeline to deliver 26 HIMARS complete packages to us to way too long for our needs and that this product can be delivered by the SK's and be actually produced in Canada under a new licensing deal onshore this with the SK's.

The US might be trying to keep the 2 items glued together for Lockheed Martin.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Carney version of that
-Awesome pay raises for CAF (Done)
-Move Coast Guard spending to defence (Done)
-Decarbonizing the military (huh?) so I guess wind farms and solar panels all through the training areas and "low carbon HE ammunition (It doesn't explode?)
-Some extra money spent on CAF/DND lands near first nations lands.
-More social awareness training with lots of consultants
-A new "Hate prevention" and "Climate Mitigator" occupations within CAF

Now, hear me out. How about as part of rebuilding and rearming Canada, Carney commits NOW to buildin a fly modernized aircraft industry that can start rolling out military and civilian aircraft that are highly sought after by 2035-2045 time frame?

We bought the C295 from Europe to replace our own home made, home designed Buffalo (An excellent aircraft, the US bought them too). Imagine if future aircraft purchases were which Canadian company does it instead of choosing between USA, South Korea and Europe? I know we are not buying aircraft from S.Korea, yet.

Does Carney's version include 12 subs? How about committing to Globaleye with SAAB and adding to the production run for Bombardier?

 

[ArmyRick]

Does Carney's version include 12 subs? How about committing to Globaleye with SAAB and adding to the production run for Bombardier?

I will be impressed with him if he gets us at least 6 good subs and the Global eye, if it happens, I will tip my hat to him.

He already gets an "atta boy" for the pay raise post haste.

 

[dapaterson]

On another note, starting to wonder if the delay in the F35 announcement is tied in any way to the HIMARS contract that was supposed to go to Congress before year end 2025 to be rubbered stamped for the sales to friendly foreign government process.

Wonder if Carney is trying to carve that piece of the pie out from the combo package going to Lockheed Martin with the 88 F35's and HIMARS both produced by them. The angle might be that the timeline to deliver 26 HIMARS complete packages to us to way too long for our needs and that this product can be delivered by the SK's and be actually produced in Canada under a new licensing deal onshore this with the SK's.

The US might be trying to keep the 2 items glued together for Lockheed Martin.

Or are artificial timelines antithetical to proper management? Perhaps other issues mean decisions and declarations need to arrive at other times?

 

[lenaitch]

Now, hear me out. How about as part of rebuilding and rearming Canada, Carney commits NOW to building a modernized aircraft industry that can start rolling out military and civilian aircraft that are highly sought after by 2035-2045 time frame?

We bought the C295 from Europe to replace our own home made, home designed Buffalo (An excellent aircraft, the US bought them too). Imagine if future aircraft purchases were which Canadian company does it instead of choosing between USA, South Korea and Europe? I know we are not buying aircraft from S.Korea, yet.

Successive Canadian governments have thrown billions at Bombardier and where did it get us? If they or DeHaviland wants government money to support a military product line, how about they come up with something more than a drawing accompanied by a whine that they weren't 'given a chance'. Other than a close-to commercial-off-the-shelf aircraft, like a next generation Twin Otter, what do we need that they could build? Without international sales, our military fleet sizes are too small to be profitable.

 

[OldSolduer]

Please remember that we are legally on the hook for 16 F35’s.
They are coming unless we are willing to break a contract and lose that money - and I doubt we are.

EH 101 the "Cadillac elicopter" enters the chat...