The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

I may have my phases confused, but lead in fighter training prior to conversion is what I am talking about. The next gen lead in fighter trainer program will take care of that. This way we are just doing conversion, we dont need an additional pilot stream of unneeded planes

NFTC basically split jet flying and the full FLIT into Phase III and Phase IV. And you got wings after Phase III. Not everybody went onto Phase IV right away.

The FFLIT program will replace the Hawk for the above. What I am suggesting is that in lieu of the stupid Gripen sole source we add a light fighter that is exactly based on the FFLIT. Or even just more FFLITs. This is common in many other smaller air forces. It doesn't add the full burden of another type. And becomes a place to park a new FLIT grad to build experience before going to a main fighter squadron. And I've heard this was actually presented as a COA. Since we need to buy a FLIT anyway, this is a kill two birds with one stone situation.

 

[OldSolduer]

I am not optimistic our pilots will be flying anything other than a version of the F 18 for the foreseeable future, despite the PM's "promises".

I really think the Liberals want to opt out of jet fighters. Period.

 

[dapaterson]

I have a close friend who is a pilot for a rich dude in town. I was shocked when told me how little our regional pilots make.

A Major pilot is paid more than both pilots in a Q400 combined

 

[Kirkhill]

A Major pilot is paid more than both pilots in a Q400 combined

How about a Minor pilot?

 

[OldSolduer]

How about a Minor pilot?

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 is allowed to pilot passenger planes......

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 is allowed to pilot passenger planes......

Well they'll likely be getting the vote soon.

 

[childs56]

This is a take that only somebody with zero experience or knowledge of the RCAF would come up with.

Assumptions are always funny and often misguided.

NATO targets that countries aim for 180 hrs per year per fighter pilot for MINIMUM proficiency. Throw in the general rule of thumb for 2-3 hrs of pre and post flight work per flight hour and you have a lot of work for a reservist. We're talking about a part-time job that's at least 10-15 hrs per week.

The ANG manages to perform decently, not sure why we can't other then we don't. It comes down to the mentality of I don't want to give up my piece of the pie. Even though there is no pie left and the pan has been thrown out the door.

And that doesn't include admin, fitness, non-flying training, etc. And even sleep. All kinds of rules in there. And all of those compound if they have another flying job.

those things are already accounted for in a regular work week.

Again. This is not driving an LSVW. It's flying a fighter jet.

I'll be, hilk hilk do you really mean that????? I have been in a vehicle with some pilots, lets say I prefer to drive. (note I was with one Fighter pilot one day who couldn't start a MLVW, in his defense he was never trained how to). Funny once I was shown how to start a fighter jet I could do it.

Suggesting that we have guys who treat this as a hobby is about as sensible as suggesting to an F1 Team that their drivers practice once a month and simply surge for a big race. The likely outcome isn't a win. It's a wrecked car and dead driver.

Do the Reserve Pilots in Tac Hel treat it as a hobby also???? I guess they crash all the time. Give your head a shake.

In any event, until we can solve our current pilot and tech shortages, this idea is even more fantastical.

It might attract more pilots into the program. But again the old boys club/ guard are in full swing. Won't cchange their ways no matter what. Se we end up with the exact same thing. FAILURE.

Not sure why you think the same deal can't be had on fighter trainers.

I didn't say that but that offer is not on the table at the moment. In saying that, we would be partnering with a partner SABB (Country) who provides more then one platform that we are interested in. Not saying SK isnt offering more. But SABB also offers a variety of equipment such as ground vehicles, support equipment radars, etc. We just signed a deal with Europe which for Defense spending.

Look at the deal Egypt is getting from the Koreans for the TA/FA-50:

https://defence-industry.eu/egypt-nears-deal-with-south-korea-for-100-fa-50-light-combat-aircraft/#google_vignette

wow amazing, what else are they offering as part of the entire deal? Interest on LM systems.

 

[GR66]

I'm going to suggest to you guys a feasible two fleet strategy. Austria is doing it:

Austria Finalizes M-346FA Acquisition

Austria acquired 12 Leonardo M-346FA aircraft in a deal worth €1.5 billion, with deliveries starting in 2028. The Austrian Ministry of Defense has

theaviationist.com

Use a FLIT bird for FLIT and Light Fighter. The Korean FA-50 has an AESA radar, Helmet Mounted Displays, can fire HOBS missiles, has datalinks and can air-to-air refuel. Half the unit price of a Gripen. Can still sling Meteors.

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The FLIT order might be 20 frames. 11 more for Snowbirds. Make it a round 35 frames in Moose Jaw. And then buy 40 of the fighter version and put 20 each in Cold Lake and Bagotville. No learning the airframe really going from FLIT to first operational tour. But on that tour they learn all the weapons in the inventory, how to refuel, hold Q, maximize use of datalinks and AESA radar. They can do red air for the F-35s and support army and navy training (all contracted out to Top Aces now). Hell, when it's this cheap we make them do 3 month stints in Inuvik (that might be too mean...). And then in 2-3 years, they move up to the F-35 without a posting and having a ton of knowledge of fighter ops with only the need to learn the aircraft. All of this would be cheaper and less resource intensive than the Gripen. And very low risk of the government abusing this aircraft by sending it off to Europe or Asia because theatre commanders would probably say no. But it does every single thing we need at home. Including intercepting Bears over the Arctic.

And I know this was at least suggested up the chain as a COA.

I hope this is the direction we go.

So you'd be proposing something like this?

20 x FT-50's for the FLIT role

• TF-50: A variant of the T-50 trainer platform that is uniquely configured as an advanced trainer and light attack fighter. It has modern capabilities to meet multiple missions and get new pilots flying operational sorties faster. Lockheed Martin is offering the TF-50 as an effective, low-risk, scalable solution that is ready to meet multiple advanced training needs around the world.

13 x T-50B's for the Snowbirds

• T-50B: Aerobatic-specialized T-50 version. Used by ROKAF's aerobatic display team, the Black Eagles.

40 x F-50's (20 each for Cold Lake and Bagotville) as the Tier 2 fighter for initial employment in the operational Wings

F-50: The F-50 is a proposed single–seat multirole fighter variant of FA-50. In 2016 it was cancelled in favor of the KAI KF-21. In 2024, KAI announced that it had resumed working on the project again. KAI is developing an F-50 upgrade kit, a single-seat conversion for the FA-50, at the request of an unnamed nation. This kit involves removing the rear pilot's seat and cockpit, creating space for an additional fuel tank and new electronics. This modification is expected to significantly increase the aircraft's operational range by 20% to 30% and boost its weapon payload capacity, making it a more capable and formidable platform. KAI plans to have a prototype ready by 2026, with the final version available by 2028.

So you'd be looking at something in the ballpark of 75-80 airframes total including spares and maintenance trainers?

I wonder how much commonality there is between the three sub-models? Is that enough aircraft to possibly leverage into assembly/parts fabrication in Canada?

Perhaps it could also lead to collaboration with KAI in their CCA program as well?

Seoul ADEX 2025: KAI advances loyal wingman developments - Asian Military Review

Korea Aerospace Industries updated on its collaborative combat aircraft development at ADEX 2025, targeting ROKAF's loyal wingman needs.

www.asianmilitaryreview.com

The ROKAF’s Vision 2050 plan details a next-generation aerial combat system concept utilising manned and unmanned aircraft. The service aims to eventually operate not just loyal wingman CCAs, but also swarms of unmanned aerial vehicles for broader mission sets, including support and logistics operations.

However, funding for these ambitions is yet to materialise, leaving industry to self-fund in the hopes of securing future contracts.

Meanwhile, KAI also announced that it has signed an agreement with US company Kratos to explore joint development of aerial manned-unmanned teaming technologies for both the South Korean and international markets.

Kratos has already established a successful track record of delivering the XQ-58 Valkyrie CCA and BQM-167, BQM-177 and MQM-178 unmanned target drones to the US Air Force.

Possibilities of a 3-way collaboration between Canada, South Korea and Kratos that would be more difficult for SK to do on its own?

 

[Czech_pivo]

So you'd be proposing something like this?

20 x FT-50's for the FLIT role

13 x T-50B's for the Snowbirds

40 x F-50's (20 each for Cold Lake and Bagotville) as the Tier 2 fighter for initial employment in the operational Wings

So you'd be looking at something in the ballpark of 75-80 airframes total including spares and maintenance trainers?

I wonder how much commonality there is between the three sub-models? Is that enough aircraft to possibly leverage into assembly/parts fabrication in Canada?

Perhaps it could also lead to collaboration with KAI in their CCA program as well?

Seoul ADEX 2025: KAI advances loyal wingman developments - Asian Military Review

Korea Aerospace Industries updated on its collaborative combat aircraft development at ADEX 2025, targeting ROKAF's loyal wingman needs.

www.asianmilitaryreview.com

Possibilities of a 3-way collaboration between Canada, South Korea and Kratos that would be more difficult for SK to do on its own?

Two questions:
1) NATO/NORAD interoperability - yes or no
2) Air to air refueling ability - yes or no

 

[calculus]

Debate ended:

 

[GR66]

Two questions:
1) NATO/NORAD interoperability - yes or no
2) Air to air refueling ability - yes or no

• Joint development between KAI and Lockheed Martin (of course the GOC would ignore the LM part)
• Candidate for the USAF Advanced Tactical Trainer program and the USN Tactical Surrogate Aircraft & Undergraduate Jet Training System programs
• Link 16
• AIM-9X and AIM-120 AMRAAM as well as Meteor missiles
• Cobham Mission Systems telescopic aerial refueling probe
• Same GE F404 engine as our CF-18's

What are other NATO/NORAD interoperability requirements?

 

[Maxman1]

Do we need to go that far? or could we just buy an excessive number of the next lead in fighter trainer, give that to some kind of air reserve pilot trade, that way if needed we are just converting them to X platform within 6 weeks to 3 months.

CF-18, 9 months, F-35 is 9-12 months, by getting pilots to phase 2 standard we cut 1.5-2 years off training them into a plane. Having a light fighter doesn't really change this because they would still need 9 months of conversion training to learn the F35. So why add more work when we dont need to?

The idea is the light fighter and the trainer are the same aircraft, as well as the Snowbirds plane. So pilots wouldn't need to be qualified on a new platform.

 

[Kirkhill]

• Joint development between KAI and Lockheed Martin (of course the GOC would ignore the LM part)
• Candidate for the USAF Advanced Tactical Trainer program and the USN Tactical Surrogate Aircraft & Undergraduate Jet Training System programs
• Link 16
• AIM-9X and AIM-120 AMRAAM as well as Meteor missiles
• Cobham Mission Systems telescopic aerial refueling probe
• Same GE F404 engine as our CF-18's

What are other NATO/NORAD interoperability requirements?

See you your Koreans and raise you the Swedes.

Boeing–Saab T-7 Red Hawk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Boeing Saab
GE 404
T7 selected by USAF
351 units for 9.1 BUSD (26 MUSD apiece and 20% F35 operating cost).
F7 configuration already underway.