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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

I believe Viking did, along with Field Aviation in Toronto but no idea who owns the rights
From Transport Canada to you for those who can understand these things; it seems the certificate is held by DeHaviland Aircraft of Canada Limited (the new version) but it seems only for the original piston version.

It may have simply been included in the acquisition deal for the ones they really wanted and it and the drawings are lying in a drawer somewhere in Calgary.
 

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U.S. Air Force Gen. Gregory Guillot inadvertently contributed to the political debate in Canada over the fighter jet procurement when he told a congressional panel earlier this month that fifth-generation fighter jets like the F-35 are “frankly” not needed to defend North America’s borders.

The Norad commander told U.S. senators such advanced stealth fighters are better suited to attacking targets overseas.

“I would like to see continued modernization of fourth-generation fighter fleet,” the general told the U.S. Senate Armed Services committee on March 21.

“We don’t need fifth-gen to defend our borders. Those capabilities are better used overseas, where their stealth, air-to-ground weapons and penetration capability are needed.”


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U.S. Air Force Gen. Gregory Guillot inadvertently contributed to the political debate in Canada over the fighter jet procurement when he told a congressional panel earlier this month that fifth-generation fighter jets like the F-35 are “frankly” not needed to defend North America’s borders.

The Norad commander told U.S. senators such advanced stealth fighters are better suited to attacking targets overseas.

“I would like to see continued modernization of fourth-generation fighter fleet,” the general told the U.S. Senate Armed Services committee on March 21.

“We don’t need fifth-gen to defend our borders. Those capabilities are better used overseas, where their stealth, air-to-ground weapons and penetration capability are needed.”


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Sort of funny as this specific issues had addressed much earlier in this thread when discussing split fleets and the F-15 EX and F-35 combo.

Also same article was posted and discussed a few pages ago.

Now split fleets work for the USAF due to the volume of aircraft we have — but I don’t know if the same holds true for Canada, as well I suspect that a F-15 EX and F-35 split fleet would be even more politically unpalatable as a sole F-35 fleet.

What is pretty clear to anyone but the clowns is that the Grippen has no place in the RCAF.
 
Sort of funny as this specific issues had addressed much earlier in this thread when discussing split fleets and the F-15 EX and F-35 combo.

Also same article was posted and discussed a few pages ago.

Now split fleets work for the USAF due to the volume of aircraft we have — but I don’t know if the same holds true for Canada, as well I suspect that a F-15 EX and F-35 split fleet would be even more politically unpalatable as a sole F-35 fleet.

What is pretty clear to anyone but the clowns is that the Grippen has no place in the RCAF.

Sorry about the repost. It is hard to keep up.

As to the split fleet....

All those arguments have been well rehearsed.

On this thread's previous 399 pages.
 
Sorry about the repost. It is hard to keep up.

As to the split fleet....

All those arguments have been well rehearsed.

On this thread's previous 399 pages.
Wasn’t intended to be a dig at you, more the countless anti-F-35 folks in Canada that seem to think y’all will be better served by something else.

The mental gymnastics going on with that crowd are astounding and I have to wonder if their parents had any children that lived, as clearly they are clinically braindead.
 
Wasn’t intended to be a dig at you, more the countless anti-F-35 folks in Canada that seem to think y’all will be better served by something else.

The mental gymnastics going on with that crowd are astounding and I have to wonder if their parents had any children that lived, as clearly they are clinically braindead.

2015.

That was when this thread started.

2010.

Harper announced his intention to buy 65 of the beasts

2006.

Production starts and Canada starts making money

1997.

Chretien starts paying into the JSF-F35 project.

1993.

The JSF project launches in the US - 33 years ago.

And it was supposed to be the low cost solution.

For Canada it was a capable strike platform that woud allow it contribute to more campaigns like

Kuwait 1990
Kosovo 1999
Libya 2011

and their associated no-fly campaigns

but could also handle the less demanding domestic Air Defence role.

....

As a strong supporter of the F35, and a particular fan of the F35B, the problem I am having currently is Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Azerbaijan, the Houthis, Hamas and Hezbollah don't seem to be hindered in their abilities to launch effective bombardments in the absence of the F35 and billion dollar budgets.

....

Trying to find it now but it escapes me.

Someone just posted a video about a presntation to a bunch of US Navy corpsmen about the impact of drones on their trade in Ukraine. Many things stood out for me which disappoints me more that I can't remember where it is.

One thing that did stand out for me was the description of delivering whole blood by drone to the frontline for use by the wounded soldier.
It particularly addressed the challenge of navigation in a an electronically contested environment where your GPS system is denied. The solution was a combination mutual self-referencing and terrain following.

Essentially these 1000 dollar drones are talking to each other and saying "I know where I am. Can you see me? Get a fix on my location."
And how did the original unit know where it is? It matches what it can see through its camera to a bunch of photographs in its memory.
That was the secret sauce behind the cruise missiles tested over Canada in Reagan's day. A national secret that cost billions to develop and many more to protect to ensure it didn't fall into the wrong hands. Although it didn't take long for the US itself to produce a low cost version they could stick on any of their existing and future bombs.

Now thanks to Moore's Law, smartphones and their cameras, Google Earth and TheCloud the National Secret is now availble to every hobbyist and terrorist.

...

Add that to this.

Goddard and von Braun were playing with rockets in the 30's. They were Hitler's National Secret in the 40s and the basis of geopolitics from the 50s.

But they were also the basis of Rocket clubs of hobbyists from the 50s. And they have just got easier, and cheaper, to make. And more effective.

....

The capabilities that were only available to the state are now, in the words of the CEO of Rheinmetall, available to housewives playing with Lego.

The edge that authority had over the hoi polloi has disappeared. Just as it did when the bow and arrow ruled and later, when the rifle ruled.
Democratization of force has happened and the state no longer has a monopoly on the use of force, laws notwithstanding. As somebody once said, the laws that govern rely on the consent of the governed. A lot of people are withdrawing their consent.

...

Where does this tie in to the F35 debate?

The F35 is a trillion dollar solution to a bombardment problem that can now be solved with thousand dollar rockets and drones. And even the state is reaching for lots of thousand dollar solutions rather than exquisite trillion dollar ones. It can't afford the trillion dollar ones in any case. National Secrets don't stay secret very long. And the State's edge, its monopoly on effective force, has disappeared.

Where is the justification now, in 2026, for this 33 year old National Secret when there are multiple other solutions on offer that can be purchased, or created, in mass quantities and at pace?

What will that justification look like by 2066 when the planes still flying on patrol in our arctic will be using 73 year old technology and the logisticians will be searching for 73 tear old parts from 73 year old suppliers?

...

There is a real risk that the F35's window has closed.
That its time has passed.

And I think that is a factor in the NxORAD commander's thinking.

He needs that money to be spent on stuff that will be effective today and readily adaptive to wahatever tomorrow may bring.

...

My hovercraft dreams ended a while ago. These things happen.

...

And the government may need to spend less efoort on regulating guns and more effort on regulating rockets and drones and sugar and the other stuff necessary to make effective muutions at home.
 
Wasn’t intended to be a dig at you, more the countless anti-F-35 folks in Canada that seem to think y’all will be better served by something else.

The mental gymnastics going on with that crowd are astounding and I have to wonder if their parents had any children that lived, as clearly they are clinically braindead.
Don't hold back....tell us how you really feel!
 
Nobody needs white refined sugars and it should be a controlled substance.

The world was built on white refined sugar.

It provided a storable, transportable source of your primary nutritional requirement: kJoules, or Calories if you prefer.

It eliminated the need to go foraging everyday. It eliminated the hunger moon in February.

It was the coal for the body. It was the necessary fungible carbon source.

Just as coal fuelled steam engines so sugar fuelled workers.

Chewed sugarcane in New Guinea domesticated in 8000 BC.

Juice extracted in Indonesia.

Crystallized in India by 500 BC

The technology and the crops spread to China and Persia, along with the slaves that knew how to grow it and make it, by the time of Mohammed, bless his heart.

Mohammed's Arabs then made a fortune supplying sugar, then cane, then refineries and then the black slaves that ran the economy, to the Mediterranean.

The Europeans then went looking for more places they could grow their own sugar because they were getting poor drinking sweet tea and eating Imperial Mints while the Arabs and Chinese got rich.

So the Europeans went looking for places like the islands where sugar was grown. Places like Cyprus and Crete and the Balearics.

They found Madeira, the Azores, The Canaries and hit the jackpot in the Caribbean.

We owe our current ease and comfort to refined white sugar.

It is good stuff, like coal, to keep in storage. It will supply all the carbon you need when the transportation system breaks down.
 
The F35 is a trillion dollar solution to a bombardment problem that can now be solved with thousand dollar rockets and drones.
Your posts frequently have me sit back and review my own view of things. This one certainly got me reviewing my previous thoughts. Just as a background, I've been a fan of science fiction since friend's mother - our public schools librarian - got me hooked on Edgar Rice Burroughs' Jon Carter series. I find it interesting that much of today's science fiction has characters roaming around with light sabres and fighting battles in space roving versions of fighter aircraft shooting bullets and laser beams and dropping bombs. Clearly a lack of imagination for most.

Sometimes I do wonder how much of the defence industry is based in lack of imagination. Rheinmetall's CEO definitely is. The "exquisite" model of engineering that Germany uses these days is the same wrong concept that caused them problems on the Russian front. Tolerances that are too tight; spare part unavailability due to manufacturing difficulties; shortfalls of equipment due to length of time required to build a unit. Who would have thought that we'd be building armoured infantry vehicles that cost in the tens of millions of dollars each?

My problem in discussing cheap hausfrau manufactured drones v the F-35 as a "solution to the bombardment problem" is that I feel the drones effectiveness is in large part enabled by several decades of investment in the wrong air defence systems. Western ground forces have for over 50 years depended on their air forces to keep the opponent's air bombardment systems at bay while ground-based bombardment was restricted by the limited range of guns and early rockets. With time - assuming we do things right - cheap, effective ground-based defences to cheap drone swarms will be fielded.

I don't think that the F-35 solution as a system which, in conjunction with a variety of UCAVs and gun and rocket artillery will be the foundation of the modern breakthrough battle, will be bested in the next decade or so. In other words, I don't think that keeping all of one's eggs in one basket is the solution. One needs a number of effectors that can work in harmony. That too is why I think that the tank isn't dead yet. It's one of the few systems that enables the seizure - especially rapid seizure - of ground . . . as long as it is accompanied by the right mix of defensive systems.

I've long ago said that we not only need an army of today and an army of tomorrow - which describes a present and future force structure - but also an army "for" today which meets our current missions, but also an army "for" tomorrow - which describes how that future force structure enables low cost day-to-day requirements in the future as well as have the ability to transform rapidly into a massive host capable of very high intensity combat.

That requires a complex and comprehensive assessment of all the tools that are and will be available in the future from recruiting and training and weapon manufacturing to how to win that breakthrough battle at the most reasonable cost that the nation can sustain.

I'm far from sold by Guillot's statement on the F-35's role in NORAD until I see a viable continental IAMD system which, at present, is pretty much nonexistent. For me, F-35s accompanied by numerous and UNEXPENSIVE autonomous unmanned systems will be the core of continental air defence for some time to come. Rather than pouring money into Grippens, Canada would be better off to set up a domestic manufacturing capability in something like the T-50 for use as a trainer, Snowbird and strike fighter aircraft and a separate fleet of cheap autonomous aircraft. It's an entry level we should easily be capable of meeting.

Meanwhile - let's build a cottage industry for ground-based drone swarms as well as CUAV systems.

🍻
 
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