The red baron: a national hero at last

[Blackadder1916]

Germany (and Japan) I believe will have a reawakening of pride in self, of country and service, probably within the next 10 years. Its simply my own opinion and how I perceive matters to unfold in the next decade.  I could be fully wrong, right or just 50%; I do believe that Germany (and Japan) can return to having pride in who they are as German (and Japanese).

I have to surmise that you haven't met many Germans or Japanese if you think that the average citizen of either nation does not currently have pride in their country or a feeling of superiority over, well..., just about everyone else.  Humility is not what comes to mind when I think of Germans (or Japanese); "strong but quiet arrogance" would be a better description.  Don't confuse the non-celebration of their militaristic pasts with a lack of pride in what they are now or have been.  Both nations were able to successfully rise from destruction (of their own making). They both feel they deserve an important place in the world, however they learned a painful lesson about how to achieve that place.  Post-war, they needed to adopt (and also had imposed on them) a mindset that military action had to be the last resort and used only for defense of (and on) their home territory.  It is this lingering mindset that is a major factor in their attitude to military service.

 

[geo]

+1 Black adder.  The lesson they learnt is "non-intervention"

Or at least "not too much meddling"

 

[JBG]

Panzer...
The Germans have done a "mea culpa" for the NAZI war crimes.... the Japanese have setadfastly refused.
They are both pert much proud of themselves... they just have to gain trust in themselves when the leave their own country to "visit" that big world.

The story about Chancellor Merkel's visit, excerpted below, shows how much progress Germany has made in this regard. Austria, Hitler's birthplace, has made no such progress nor, as pointed out above, Japan. See story below (link):

Germany and Israel

Friends in high places
Mar 19th 2008 | BERLIN
From The Economist print edition

The pomp and symbolism of Angela Merkel's visit to Israel


THE Federal Republic of Germany waited until Israel was 17 years old before establishing diplomatic relations. But the two countries have since more than made up for the delay. This week the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, took half her cabinet to Jerusalem for an early celebration of Israel's 60th birthday (in May). Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, greeted her at the airport as if she were an American president. On March 18th Ms Merkel addressed Israel's parliament, an honour previously reserved for heads of state. It is almost official: Germany is Israel's second-best friend.

************

Ms Merkel's diffidence arises from history: her country's and her own. The Nazis' attempt to exterminate the Jews helped bring about Israel's creation; its survival is a sacrosanct principle of German foreign policy. The tardiness in establishing diplomatic links was partly meant to stop Arab states recognising East Germany (under the “Hallstein doctrine”, West Germany severed relations with any country that recognised its sibling). Friendship with Israel served Germany's goal of better links with America as well as its conscience. Even before establishing relations it secretly sold weapons to Israel.

Having grown up in East Germany, Ms Merkel is a latecomer to German-Jewish rapprochement. East Germany portrayed its citizens as co-victims of Nazism and, unlike West Germany, did not own up to German responsibility for the Holocaust. Ms Merkel, who has visited Israel three times in her 26 months as chancellor, is trying to build a relationship that relies more on future collaboration than on fading memories of genocide.

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

Thanks for clearing that for me lads. 

 

[time expired]

I hope you didn't miss the somewhat cynical tone of part
of this report," its almost official;Germany is Israel's`second
best friend".I live in Germany and I can assure you the Germans
are not Israel's best friends.Most Germans still resent Jews for
constantly reminding them and the rest of the World  of their less
than savoury past.While anti semetism is outlawed in this country
this dislike manifests itself in constant criticism of Israel and support
for the Palestinians this is particularly apparent at the left of the
political spectrum SPD,Greens and the newly emerging Communist
party,Die Linke.So you see this is just the maneavering of another
politician trying to move Germany onto the international scene.
                              Regards

 

[Yrys]

I've mamade a separate thread about the new movie "The Red Baron" here :


Army.ca Forums > The Parade Square > Military History

German war film challenges taboo

 

[daftandbarmy]

Shot down today, 90 years ago - by some upstart coloinials no less. Harrumph...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

 

[Kilo_302]

Heinz Guderian won't be lionised any time soon, nor Michael Wittman (or Hans Ulrich Rudel, for that matter).

I would hope Guderian is never praised. There is growing evidence that he and other members of the Wehrnacht often viewed as mere professional soldiers actively supported many of the Nazi racial policies as well as the widespread policy of war crimes on the Eastern front. This subject is dealt with at great length in Omar Bartov's "Hitler's Army : Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich."

 

[TCBF]

It can shake off the shame of a defeat. Europe can never shake off the shame of its treatment of the Jewish people. It wasn't only, or even primarily Germany.

- "... or even primarily Germany."  ?!?!  I would like to hear your theory on that.  Granted, they used the local police in France, Italy, Holland, etc. to round up the victims, but it was Germany who ran the camps that killed 13,000,000 people, 6,000,000 of which were Jewish (the other 7,000,000 being Homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovas Wittnes, Poles, POWs, etc.).

 

[geo]

TCBF... there is enough info on the "pogroms" that ran through Poland & Russia throughout the 1800s to validate JBGs statement.

Having some Jews was nice but having largescale ghetos in their cities wasn't.
Whenever the gov't in power ran into trouble or got behind in their payments to the money lenders (Jews) a little pogrom to write off debts certainly had it's attractive side.

 

[TCBF]

TCBF... there is enough info on the "pogroms" that ran through Poland & Russia throughout the 1800s to validate JBGs statement. ...
.

- All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.

 

[Shec]

- All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.

TCBF's point is well made.   While the pogroms of  Europe (ie. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary  etc., etc.) had the aim of "expulsion" or conversion (Spanish Inqusition) the Nazi's had the aim of "extermination" (full stop).

 

[daftandbarmy]

And this discussion is related to the Red Baron how?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I believe he ate lox and bagels once.

 

[TCBF]

And this discussion is related to the Red Baron how?

- Sidebar provoked by Reply 11, Page 1.

 

[stegner]

The Nazi's committed the Holocaust with the implicit and explicit support of many of the locals of the countries they conquered.  The Vichy Government in France Marshal Philippe Pétain is but one example of a European country lending its 'assistance' to the Final Solution.  While it is easier to blame everything on the Nazi's-many countries in Europe during this period had blood on their hands also.  These include Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Norway, Romania, Sweden, Syria, Ukraine, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Hungary, Hungary, Serbia and Switzerland all of whom provided varying degrees of support of the Holocaust along with the actual perpetuation.  Some of these countries had only very minimal Nazi assistance.  Though, this has been conveniently forgotten by many of them. 

 

[MedTechStudent]

Ok dokie lets back er up on the Nazi discussion.  Bottom line is that this thread is about a pilot.  I extremely talented fighter pilot who achieved great things while doing one of the most dangerous jobs ever.  His ties to the Nazi ideals are irrelevant if even existent.  Not every German soldier or airman new the Nazi master plan, or ever took direct part in it.  They were ordered to fight for their country so they did.  In my opinion, this man did not turn the gas on at any concentration camps, he did not loot or pillage any Jews, he was a fighter pilot and deserves recognition from his country.

ps.  His career ran its course before the Nazis came to power in 1933, and almost two decades before the holocaust ended and its extent revealed , so I don't see what The Red Baron has to do with it.  ???

 

[TCBF]

- ... and the last thing we need is a new thread titled "Had He Lived, Would The Red Baron Have Joined The NSDAP?"

8)

 

[54/102 CEF]

I think you will find that Bismark is fairly well remembered in Germany.  Lots of Statues of him everywhere, Monuments in Berlin, and "Bismark Towers" crossing the length and breadth of the country.

Bismark Towers Link - Thanks to George for alert to this! http://flickr.com/groups/bismarck/pool/show/with/944034660/

 

[JBG]

- All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.

Quite true, but Poland had the highest loss of Jews both in numbers and % of its Jewish population butchered. The pogroms dehumanized the Jews and created fertile ground for the Nazis when they occupied to gain the cooperation of the local population so needed to round up and kill the Jews.