The role of the military and its relation to alleviating humanitarian crises?!

[George Wallace]

And i will not argue that my idealist view is close minded because that is a subjective statement in and of itself, which can as easily be applied to your worldview.

Your logic escapes me.  How do you apply a "closed minded" view to a "worldview"?

 

[a_majoor]

thucydides -  i find your quote kind of ironic. It seems to fly against everything youve posted. "If the greatness of life is measured in deeds done for others, then Canada's sons and daughters who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan stand among the greatest of their generation" .. this seems to be beyond any national self interest?

But who are the others? If I were to die in Afghanistan it would be to ensure my son and daughter could live for another generation in a free market liberal democracy: the "others" are me and mine; my fellow Canadians. It is a very pleasant side effect that this also benefits our Afghan bretheren (not to mention the Americans, British, Dutch and everyone else on the planet to some greater or lesser degree), but always remember the primary motivation.

 

[Future Prodigy]

Sorry about the red, i couldn't figure out how to unquote myself once i hit the button - I'm still trying to figure things out  ???

Thucydides - see thats the problem with our individualized North American society... we focus solely on the nuclear family, and our concept of relations does not extend to a bigger circle. This is a microcosm for the ills of the world!

 

[Yrys]

I'm still trying to figure things out  ???

Try in Milnet.ca Admin : Need HELP figuring out Army.ca functionality??.
It will take less time ...

 

[Future Prodigy]

Sorry about the red, i couldn't figure out how to unquote myself once i hit the button - I'm still trying to figure things out  ???

Thucydides - see thats the problem with our individualized North American society... we focus solely on the nuclear family, and our concept of relations does not extend to a bigger circle. This is a microcosm for the ills of the world!

After i think about it, I'm really starting to get worried about the state of affairs in Canada and elsewhere. This biological notion of humanity is so limited... we must open our minds to incorporate the concept that familial ties go beyond biology... this is the first step in the process to eradicating the problems of the world.

I'm still curious as to what people have to say about my "original" post!? We have digressed tremendously.

p.s. i might have come across wrong in this forum. I really do appreciate the work the military does, i just think we need to broaden our scope on issues (this is applicable to all of society). I am still attracted to the prospect of a job in the CF but i want it to be something that makes a difference and benefits people. Whether i will ever find such a outlet, seems to be debateable - aside from the obvious SAR tech

 

[teabag]

Future Prodigy, I'm not sure what you want me to say in response to your original post.  Skimming this topic, I found the responses provided thus far suitable, appropriate and offered opportunities to further your research.  I am left wondering if you genuinely seek our input or are looking for spaces to voice your own.  You are a senior University student and presumably possess good information gathering skills, so I hope that the contributions by the community will allow you to decide whether a career in the Canadian Forces is a good decision for you.

Poverty, nuclear weapons, child soldiers and the like are topics that people in general should address.  Just because I wear the uniform does not mean I do not care or am complacent about those issues - I sponsor three children in developing countries, for example.  I am aware that our actions as Canada's military could have a direct or indirect influence on such things.  If you are looking to put your conscience at ease, there are also many charities that are directly involved in those matters on an international level.  Try Charity Navigator:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

Once again, I'm glad you are considering becoming a part of the Canadian Forces family.  Your keen interest in learning about our ethos has shown you are thoughtful when it comes to deciding what you want to do with your life and how you could potentially help others.

 

[Future Prodigy]

Once again, I'm glad you are considering becoming a part of the Canadian Forces family.  Your keen interest in learning about our ethos has shown you are thoughtful when it comes to deciding what you want to do with your life and how you could potentially help others.

What is the military ethos? I am interested in this and the mandate of the military... but alas, although i am a university student i am not the greatest with the internet.

I am in a sense trying to start a debate i guess... i'm playing the devils advocate here. This is very much my own thought patterns espoused on you guys. I'm trying to work through/make sense of my mental musings. I want to enter CF as a career but i cant seem to make sense of it in light of the issues ive been raising and the moral/ethical world view i have shaped in my last 4 years of studies at university.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Google can be your friend....

Here's part of the ethos picture, well expressed, as an introduction (video + transcript).

Happy hunting!

 

[Future Prodigy]

"internationally, the CF supports Canadian foreign policy objectives such as protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering.

Among the CF's particularly difficult and dangerous tasks is intervening in failed states, such as Afghanistan, to promote international stability."

Straight from the horses mouth... these are what sparked my thread.  Dallaire brought these topics up, and yet from the responses i have seen, thus far, this 'official' ethos is not held to on the ground level?

 

[medaid]

I don't get it. We are following the ethos on the 'ground' level so to speak.

 

[leroi]

"internationally, the CF supports Canadian foreign policy objectives such as protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering.

Among the CF's particularly difficult and dangerous tasks is intervening in failed states, such as Afghanistan, to promote international stability."

Straight from the horses mouth... these are what sparked my thread.  Dallaire brought these topics up, and yet from the responses i have seen, thus far, this 'official' ethos is not held to on the ground level?

Future Prodigy,

This quote reflects precisely what Canadian Forces are doing in Afghanistan.  That is the ethos of Canada's mission; that is why they can't pull out easily now--despite the costs in terms of both lives and dollars; if Canada pulls out now, we will be seen on an international level as moral cowards and hypocrites because the insurgents will turn violently on the civilian population of Afghanistan.  But more importantly, pulling out now would exacerbate suffering contrary to our  objective to alleviate same.

Canadian soldiers are well-respected in Afghanistan and I would even go so far as to say loved ... This evening, I heard that spoken from the lips of another university student who is from Afghanistan--but lives in Guelph.  He is in touch with family and friends in Afghanistan now:  he is glad to be in Canada but is thankful for everything our Canadian soldiers have done for his country ...

Don't forget, Canada lost three soldiers in the past week--this is the ultimate sacrifice that a human being  (for his or her country) can make to uphold the principles of which Mr. Dallaire spoke ...

So you see, the official ethos is indeed being held on the ground level ...

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

"internationally, the CF supports Canadian foreign policy objectives such as protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering.

Among the CF's particularly difficult and dangerous tasks is intervening in failed states, such as Afghanistan, to promote international stability."

Straight from the horses mouth... these are what sparked my thread.  Dallaire brought these topics up, and yet from the responses i have seen, thus far, this 'official' ethos is not held to on the ground level?

Going to the DND main site you will see the military's mission and tasks in broad terms.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/about/index_e.asp

You will note that "Protecting Canadians and defending our sovereignty is our first priority."  Defending North America comes right after, followed by contributing to international peace and security. 

This is pretty much what I have been saying.  Canada comes first when choices and decisions have to be made.  This does not, however, preclude helping others.  We have sent forces to humanitarian missions, but these have sometimes come to grief when they are more than simply providing disaster relief.  The argument can certainly be made that Canada should help more in the world in order to prevent foreign problems coming to roost in Canada.

The point I am trying to make is that there is more to the military than simply helping people in the world.

 

[George Wallace]

"internationally, the CF supports Canadian foreign policy objectives such as protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering.

Among the CF's particularly difficult and dangerous tasks is intervening in failed states, such as Afghanistan, to promote international stability."

Straight from the horses mouth... these are what sparked my thread.  Dallaire brought these topics up, and yet from the responses i have seen, thus far, this 'official' ethos is not held to on the ground level?

First off you have to understand where your comments came from and of what you are talking about.

You have heard comments on Canada's role at the Strategic level.  Then you are wondering why things are different at the Tactical level.  We'll  confuse you a little, more by mentioning that in between there is the Operational Level.  If you look at the Strategic Level, you will find that there are political policies being dealt with.  Once you get down to the Tactical Level, the people implementing the plans, are not concerned about political policies, but in getting the job done and coming home alive following their mandated Rules Of Engagement.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

What is the military ethos? I am interested in this and the mandate of the military... but alas, although i am a university student i am not the greatest with the internet.

That almost strikes me as impossible.

in light of the issues ive been raising and the moral/ethical world view i have shaped in my last 4 years of studies at university.

from the responses i have seen, thus far, this 'official' ethos is not held to on the ground level?

Less learning and more doing.  There is only so much that you are going to get out of a book.  How about you just join and then see where it takes you?  How bad can it be?  You are a 21 year old religion and culture student at Laurier in your third year.  You have lots of time to experience life and have a well rounded career.  The CF will never look bad on a resume.

This thread is starting to have a bit of a "I'm fishing for term paper research shortcuts" feel to it...

 

[Future Prodigy]

That almost strikes me as impossible.

Less learning and more doing.  There is only so much that you are going to get out of a book.  How about you just join and then see where it takes you?  How bad can it be?  You are a 21 year old religion and culture student at Laurier in your third year.  You have lots of time to experience life and have a well rounded career.  The CF will never look bad on a resume.

This thread is starting to have a bit of a "I'm fishing for term paper research shortcuts" feel to it...

ACTUALLY.. I'm a 4th year 23 year old student and my schools on strike right now, so your term paper comment is redundant! I ask out of sincere curiosity, as i have been given the profession some thought but am trying to work things out in my head. I don't want to just join if i feel deep down there is a conflict in interest, which is why im trying to work things out now... i really do want to make a difference in my career choice and i dont want to just be another number in the status quo.

 

[a_majoor]

The realms from Strategic to tactical are all intertwined, and need to be aligned properly in order to function. The CF exists to protect Canada and Canadians (Strategic), thus it also protects me and mine (Tactical). You should also re read my comment, I also included all Canadians as the people I protect first and foremost.

As Tango2Bravo said, this does not preventing us from helping others, indeed there may be occasions where helping others is indeed the best way to support the national interest. As Zipperhead Cop pointed out; a horde of trained rats might also prove to be the most effective means of solving a problem (although I can't imagine what that problem would be..... ???). The government chooses the tools to solve the problem, we in the CF are tools to meet a broad range of potential problems and deal with threats to Canada and Canadians.

Just like your own toolbox in the garage or in your closet, various tools are designed to do particular things. You can extend their uses a bit, like using a screwdriver to pry something open, but it is neither safe nor desirable to do so for a prolonged period. "We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people." isn't rhetoric, it is fact. We can undertake limited humanitarian aid and reconstruction, and will do so when it supports the CF mission on the ground. If you are looking at bigger scales of aid or reconstruction, there are other appropriate organizations which concentrate on these issues (and occasionally hire private contractors for security if they are unwilling to deal with military forces).

Your desire to do development and aid is great, and I encourage you to do so, but please ensure you understand the strengths and limitations of organizations to deliver aid and development and choose accordingly. If you join the CF only to do humanitarian work, you may find it frustrating. If you want to be a humanitarian first responder, the CF is one avenue to approach, many NGO's do this sort of work as well, but are not self contained like a military formation. Long term aid and development can be conducted by NGO's and government agencies, if that is what you want to do, then a short career in the CF might be a good stepping stone to reach those goals.

Bon Chance!

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Prodigy,

The following is taken from Duty with Honour: The Profession of Arms in Canada published by DND under the authority of the CDS in 2003:

"A Canadian Statement of Canadian Military Professionalism - The profession of arms in Canada is composed of military members who are dedicated to the defence of Canada and its interests, as directed by the Government of Canada.  The profession of arms is distinguished by the concept of service before self, the lawful, ordered application of military force, and the acceptance of unlimited liability."

Soldiers are obedient to the lawful authority of the Government of Canada.  We can be ordered into harms way, which makes us rather unique.  We are not, however, automatons who blindly follow orders.  There are certainly ethical choices and decisions to made.  Our men and women overseas live this everyday.

I would add, however, that the ethical choices made by professional soldiers usually deal with how they discharge their duties within a greater operation, not the strategic nature of the operation itself.  Soldiers tend to be concerned with "Jus in Bello" or how the laws by which the war is fought.  The leaders of a country are concerned with with "Jus ad Bellum" or the justification for the war itself (although they remain accountable for how the war is fought).  My view of international politics may be somewhat ancient or classical, but I have yet to meet something that can realistically replace it.

I don't know if I would characterize the military in terms of "another number in the status quo" or not.  I see us as members of the profession of arms.  Do you wish to be a part of that?  I have served for some nineteen years now.  I find it rather self-actualizing.  I have had the chance to work with some awesome people and have done things that few Canadians outside the military have.  As an example, I have watched a nation come up with a constitition while working with their fledgling professional military to protect the process.  Others here have done much much more in a host of places both here at home and overseas.

 

[Future Prodigy]

I don't know if I would characterize the military in terms of "another number in the status quo" or not.  I see us as members of the profession of arms.  Do you wish to be a part of that?  I have served for some nineteen years now.  I find it rather self-actualizing.  I have had the chance to work with some awesome people and have done things that few Canadians outside the military have.  As an example, I have watched a nation come up with a constitition while working with their fledgling professional military to protect the process.  Others here have done much much more in a host of places both here at home and overseas.

See these are the kind of things im interested in. I don't want to sound anti-national, or treasonous, or anything like that, but i will not support any war effort that is geared solely towards obtaining resources or things that our country needs economically; that is nothing but war-mongering bullying. My firm belief in the inherent worth of universal humanity and an objective morality far outweighs any notion of nation states. This does not mean though that I am a pacifist or unwilling to go to war, it just has to fit a wider range of criteria (the ones posted above are a good example):

"internationally, the CF supports Canadian foreign policy objectives such as protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering. Among the CF's particularly difficult and dangerous tasks is intervening in failed states, such as Afghanistan, to promote international stability."

-------------

Thucydides - i think your misreading my posts... I do value humanitarian aid and development work, but I am not really trying to look at the military's role through that avenue. I am more concerned with the above - this being the CF's duty to the international community in protecting human rights and alleviating human suffering, and also forcefully intervening in failed states.

This is what I am more interested in. I am willing to go to war and die for these kind of goals, for they are a lot broader in scope than a sole nationalistic agenda of protecting only Canadians. So, i guess... in essence, i'm asking for a further expansion on these goals. Do most CF missions fall under this or are they like tango2bravo mentioned for the defense of Canadian interests (i.e. nationalism again)? Sorry for being redundant i am still in the process of trying to figure things out myself - thanks for bearing with me.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I draw your attention to the quote "...dedicated to the defence of Canada and its interests..."  I also draw your attention to unlimited liability.

Most our our military's operations have been conducted with the intention to aid an ally or a nation in peril.  That being said, do not fool yourself into thinking that Canadian interests are not at the heart of the use of military force.  Just what is in a nation's interests is open to debate, and for a nation like Canada we are usually looking at second and third order effects when making decisions.

In addition to the rather nice sounding watching the birth of a constitution bit, I have also participated in offensive combat operations against an enemy.  I don't pick the enemy.  You don't really get to pick and choose which missions to go on and what tasks you carry out.  How you carry them out, however, is certainly your concern and indeed your lawful obligation.  I do not have a criteria regarding the Jus Ad Bellum aspect (why we go to war or an operation).  I worry about my part in that operation.  If you are carrying criteria for political level decisions that are the purview of the lawful Government of Canada then you may have some issues down the road.

If you are serious about joining the Canadian Forces, you should ask yourself this question.  Are you willing to fight in order to defend Canada? 

 

[Future Prodigy]

It depends how you define canada! I am not willing to fight for a canada that exploits other countries via neo-imperialist means (to be fair, we have not fallen trap to such an ideology/agenda, as our southern brother has, but if it got around to that then no i would not). I am willing to fight for canadian values, ideals, political systems and physical lives, but not so the consumerist/materialistic status quo can be maintained - i also as you may realize think a drastic change in our lifestyle within canada needs to occur as well. So, the answer is not black and white.