The Somme; 90 years on

[Bill DD]

Thanks for that - I am part of a 1st WW Study group associated with the Imperial War Museum in London - Both my maternal & paternal Grandfathers died in the Great War, My Father was wounded in the second and I was wounded in Northern Ireland - dues paid?

Regarding the sudy group we are entitled to view footage shot during WW1 and access many of the documents written during this time.

I am the Chair of the County Welfare Committee of the Royal British Legion and whatever happens 'We WILL remember them

:fifty:

 

[Journeyman]

I'm not sure if this is the same program that TMM cited on the first page of this thread, but the History Channel is airing "Battle of the Somme: The True Story" at 7:30 PM EST on 1 July.

It apparently uses current forensics to examine footage shot during the actual battle, and features two former-RCR from Newfoundland (Howard & Derm Coombs) to discuss the annihilation of their relatives in the Royal Newfoundland Regiment that day.

 

[54/102 CEF]

What`s lacking so far is Canadians on the Somme - here is a recent addition to our 54th Bn CEF Website.

HC Smith`s War http://www.54thbattalioncef.ca/WARPAGES/HC%20SMITH.htm#HENRY%20CROZIER-SMITH

He describes it as "The whole country here seems to be one huge camp as far as the eye can see. " -

How to find locations with a fair degree of accuracy - see the northern most point on the Canadian Sector here. Its a reverse engineered grid reference for a point called Desire Trench. All comments are welcome.

http://cobwfa.ca/mapping_fichiers/fullscreen.htm

A Somme map showing 4th Cdn Div ops http://www.54thbattalioncef.ca/images/somme991.jpg

Casualty rates for a typical Cdn Inf Bn - showing 72 KIA in Nov 1916 from 54th BN http://www.54thbattalioncef.ca/images/KIA54.jpg

KIA or Died of wounds on the Somme operations - HC Smith died of wounds

The unit lost 125 soldiers blown to bits during their time on the Somme - no known grave and their names are on the Vimy Memorial.
143 were lost in total - the other 18 being MIA or Died of Wounds.

04-Oct-16 135750 Pte Johns, LD
14-Oct-16 463361 Pte Reynolds, J
14-Oct-16 126204 Pte Elvin, F
14-Oct-16 160663 Pte Maupin, NB
14-Oct-16 464640 Pte Weir, OL
15-Oct-16 219864 Pte Provins, G
15-Oct-16 443673 Pte Wilson, D
15-Oct-16 463937 Pte Paterson, A
16-Oct-16 126050 Pte Vipond, HN
17-Oct-16 442491 Pte Stratton, BA
17-Oct-16 443769 LCpl Little, G
17-Oct-16 Lieut. Fenton, HJ
18-Oct-16 138724 Pte Wood, GW
21-Oct-16 474260 Pte Freemark, PJ
23-Oct-16 404805 Pte Sconce, R
23-Oct-16 160975 Pte Lugg, G
25-Oct-16 443319 Pte Steedman, VJ
25-Oct-16 403409 Pte Corrigan, H
25-Oct-16 106707 Pte Knight, M
25-Oct-16 464603 Pte McNutt, WGS
25-Oct-16 472956 Pte Parrell, GF
25-Oct-16 443850 Pte Schubert, BA
25-Oct-16 Lieut. Stanford, AG
26-Oct-16 443398 Sgt Taylor, JL
26-Oct-16 160329 Pte Feetham, EW
26-Oct-16 160527 Pte Elkins, EG
26-Oct-16 443183 Pte Pemberton, E
26-Oct-16 472968 Lcpl Farley, E
05-Nov-16 Lt Acheson, DAH
08-Nov-16 443425 Cpl Murton, L
08-Nov-16 220004 Pte McElligott, J
08-Nov-16 127539 Pte Thomas, A
13-Nov-16 474343 LCpl Davis, CH
14-Nov-16 160098 Pte McLean, AF
14-Nov-16 127547 Pte O'Drowsky, RS
18-Nov-16 127206 Pte Willis, F
18-Nov-16 443749 Pte Tattrie, W
18-Nov-16 442748 LCpl Nicholson, F
18-Nov-16 442752 Pte Oust, O
18-Nov-16 442591 Pte Nuttall, JW
18-Nov-16 126859 Pte Clark, FK
18-Nov-16 Capt King, JH
18-Nov-16 443955 LCpl Shaw, AF
18-Nov-16 443483 Pte Stocks, RJ
18-Nov-16 463370 Pte Scott, A
18-Nov-16 127389 Cpl Ryder, GT
18-Nov-16 440236 Sgt Pratt, BF
18-Nov-16 443837 Pte Smith, MJ
18-Nov-16 443801 Pte Bowes, ML
18-Nov-16 Capt King JH
18-Nov-16 443605 Pte Bechard
18-Nov-16 443652 Pte Holder, P
18-Nov-16 474067 Pte Heath, PA
18-Nov-16 442438 Sgt Macandrew, JN
18-Nov-16 443645 Cpl Walkley, GH
18-Nov-16 443956 Pte Myers, JH
18-Nov-16 160290 Pte Boon, SW
18-Nov-16 443606 Pte Baird, J
18-Nov-16 161030 Pte Baldwin, W
18-Nov-16 443647 Pte Belcher, A
18-Nov-16 443437 Pte Harrison, J
18-Nov-16 443151 Pte Nelson, HC
18-Nov-16 443821 Pte Joy, W
18-Nov-16 115836 Pte Murison, WJ
18-Nov-16 160858 Pte McColl, W
18-Nov-16 138258 Pte Bradley, G
18-Nov-16 161114 Pte Myson, J
18-Nov-16 161261 Pte Echlin, JE
18-Nov-16 126412 Pte Emeny, H
18-Nov-16 443474 Pte McDiarmid, DW

Missing 9 - bodies never found - on the Vimy Memorial
27-Sep-16 77386 LCpl Erskine, J
08-Nov-16 219810 Pte Hutton, JA
18-Nov-16 442513 Cpl Younger, HB
18-Nov-16 160242 Pte Choules, RW
18-Nov-16 187531 Pte Blaine, EJ
18-Nov-16 464313 Pte McLaughlin, J
18-Nov-16 442839 Sgt Keith, D
18-Nov-16 443247 Pte Fulkerson, F
18-Nov-16 160242 Pte Elkins, RW

29 soldiers died of wounds suffered on the Somme

12-Oct-16 443593 Pte Charters, T
14-Oct-16 442367 Pte Day, FC
14-Oct-16 443331 Cpl Trafford, AC
15-Oct-16 464021 Pte McLaughlin, T
19-Oct-16 Lieut. Renouf, E
23-Oct-16 442570 Pte Lee, AE
24-Oct-16 442480 Pte Skillicorn, JH
26-Oct-16 126001 Cpl Welsh, M
28-Oct-16 219523 LCpl Newis, GW
28-Oct-16 442353 Pte Chapman, S
03-Nov-16 442659 Pte Fearon, J
10-Nov-16 464371 Pte Urquhart, H
10-Nov-16 442770 Pte Richardson, L
18-Nov-16 126760 Pte Washburn, HN
18-Nov-16 442712 Pte Logan, H
19-Nov-16 474883 Pte Mitchinson, R
21-Nov-16 Lieut. Esslemont, J
21-Nov-16 443675 Pte Wilson, WE
24-Nov-16 443643 Pte Wetherall, J
25-Nov-16 443455 LCpl Steel, J
27-Nov-16 126924 Pte Lovering, J
27-Nov-16 126924 Pte Lovering, J
28-Nov-16 442483 Pte Smith, HC
01-Dec-16 127388 Pte Juhlin, EAW
02-Dec-16 443396 Pte Morrison, JH
05-Dec-16 443166 Pte Bryant, P
05-Dec-16 434166 Pte Bryant, E
06-Dec-16 442838 Pte Rennie, CK
10-Dec-16 161009 Pte Atherton, J

Details of where they lie today are here http://www.54thbattalioncef.ca/WARPAGES/PCas16.htm

More on the 54th BN here http://www.54thbattalioncef.ca/index.htm -- fire the Lewis Gun at the top of the page

The Veterans Affairs site says @ http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=feature/bh_somme2006&CFID=4616590&CFTOKEN=44591052

More than 24,000 Canadians and 700 Newfoundlanders were killed, wounded or went missing in the Somme Region in 1916. They fulfilled their duty against overwhelming odds. Their unbreakable spirit, unwavering courage and selfless sacrifice so many years ago continues to have a profound influence on our Canadian way of life. Their legacy is our heritage - and, together, we will honour their memory.

Canadian battle casualties at the Somme had totalled 24,029, (killed, wounded and missing) p. 174 - Offiicial History of the CEF which is here http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/downloads/Official_Histories/CEF_e.PDF

When it opens up in your PDF Reader enter the search term Somme.

 

[54/102 CEF]

Not sure if one of the original questions has been answered - or batted back across the net - what would you have done on the Somme?

I think the most promising answer is the massive concentration of Artillery like they did at Vimy 16 weeks after the Somme petered out.

Guns and doctrine seem to have come together in a very cooridnated way vs the on and off Bn attacks on the Somme. Brits played out and we helped them catch their breath?

Now to those who say it couldn;t have been done - I suggest - trace the incoming artillery units on the British Orbat..... not sure how you`d do that - but it is a fact that they hit them hard on a narrow frontage (compared to the whole line) on 9 April 1917. I have also read that the key was the artillery was able to prevent the arrival German Reserves who were some 8 hours march east of Vimy Ridge whereas the net aim in the Somme operations were to keep the Germans to cover the Somme rather than force them out of it.

In the case of the Somme - I understand its basically a long uphill slope and the German Reserves were right behind the line.

Comments all?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Not sure if one of the original questions has been answered - or batted back across the net - what would you have done on the Somme?

I think the most promising answer is the massive concentration of Artillery like they did at Vimy 16 weeks after the Somme petered out.

Guns and doctrine seem to have come together in a very cooridnated way vs the on and off Bn attacks on the Somme. Brits played out and we helped them catch their breath?

Now to those who say it couldn;t have been done - I suggest - trace the incoming artillery units on the British Orbat..... not sure how you`d do that - but it is a fact that they hit them hard on a narrow frontage (compared to the whole line) on 9 April 1917. I have also read that the key was the artillery was able to prevent the arrival German Reserves who were some 8 hours march east of Vimy Ridge whereas the net aim in the Somme operations were to keep the Germans to cover the Somme rather than force them out of it.

In the case of the Somme - I understand its basically a long uphill slope and the German Reserves were right behind the line.

Comments all?

High explosive rarely demoralized or killed enough Germans to make weeklong bombardments worthwhile nor concentrations of same; the Somme was no different. I believe the problem at the time was a lack of wire-cutting shells, which would have allowed the infantry to move forward unimpeded. The complexities of the rolling barrage, box barrage and various other helpful artillery programs were still being perfected. It is well and good to say "why not just do what they did a year later", but the salient point here is that the British - all the Allies, and for that matter the Germans - were all learning, and learning slowly. They didn't do it because it hadn't yet occurred to them.

No, artillery wasn't the decisive key. The reorganization of infantry into platoons and even sections was what made the difference at Vimy (and wire cutting shells). Intensity of barrage was one of the things Haig was banking on, and look how well THAT worked out for him. The most successful divisions on Day One were those that either used smoke cover, or else leaned on the barrage by crawling into No Man's Land in anticipation of Zero, followed by a sprint to the German lines.  I'll reiterate - had those kinds of lessons been disseminated more quickly, or had division commanders been allowed to exercise more leeway in using sensible tactics (as Middlebrook called them), that would have made a lot of difference.

 

[Bill DD]

[b]OVER THE TOP - JULY 1ST 1916[/b]

It is utterly impossible to describe one's feelings during the hours of waiting for zero hour- the mind is full of wild thoughts and fancies which are utterlybeyond control. Recollections of friends and dear ones, places we have seen and known and different phases of life all seem to pass in review before ones eyes and one is recalled to the bitter realities of the moment by the officers voice 'Fifteen minutes to go boys - get ready' Immediately there is a great stir and excitement, a final setting of equipment etc and examination of arms and then a handshake with one or two dear comrades.  Over you go boys - and we are away on that strange journey across 'NO MAN'S LAND

Thomas Hudson, Private, Lancashire Fusiliers

 

[Red 6]

This is a fascinating thread. In the modern era, soldiers are recognized as innovators who are adaptable to chaniging circumstances. Commanders at all levels are charged with two functions: 1) Accomplish the mission, and 2) Look out for the welfare of their soldiers. These are releatively simple benchmarks. It doesn't take anybody in combat long to figure out that if you get wasted, the war won't stop because of it. I'm a firearms instructor for my agency and just yesterday, we were out on the range with our recruit academy. During a discussion about deadly force encounters, I used the analogy of a big lottery that you throw your badge number into at the start of every watch. Maybe it gets pulled, maybe not. For World War I, it seems as if the deck was stacked against the infantryman at the sharp end of the spear. I'll go out on a limb here and say that most of us probably recognize that there is a differnet attitude in the modern era to casualties then in World War I. 

It seems to me the many/most of the innovations in World War I were either at the tactical level, or technical in nature. Tanks, chemical agents, that sort of thing, were introduced and employed, but it seems to me that they didn't alter how missions were carried out at the operational level. The basic way offensives were carried out doesn't seem to have changed much during the course of the war, at least on the allied side.

 

[JackD]

hello - I've been following this most interesting thread, and of course cannot add much to the discussion beyond bringing notice to all of you this most interesting website i discovered http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/index.htm

 

[Bill DD]

JackD.............Many thanks, some hours (or days) of reading and study here

 

[big bad john]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2248115,00.html

The stamp, above, which reproduces J.P.Beadle's painting The Battle of the Somme - Attack of the Ulster Division has been issued in Ireland for the anniversary of what was the greatest First World War offensive. Many believe the gains made were not worth the loss of life





Ireland will honour men who fell at the Somme
By David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent





A SOLEMN ceremony to mark the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme will be attended in Dublin this weekend by the President and Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, in a further sign that Ireland’s historic wounds are finally beginning to heal.
Unionist politicians from Northern Ireland will stand side-by-side at an official state ceremony at the National War Memorial Gardens, in Islandbridge, with their southern brethren in memory of the 49,000 Irishmen who died during the Great War.



Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, recently said of the Battle of the Somme: “More than 5,000 men of the 36th Ulster Division fell in the first two days in July 1916. They fought alongside 200,000 Irish men from every county of Ireland.

“Their bravery was no less than that shown by the insurgents of Easter Week.”

He was referring to the 1916 Easter Rising, a failed military rebellion against British rule in Ireland, which today is at the heart of the Republic’s foundation. The 1916 Rising sparked a resurgence in Irish nationalism which led, in a few short years, to independence and the partition of Ireland. The hundreds of thousands of Irish soldiers returning home after the war found that they had been written out of the island’s historical narrative. In Northern Ireland the Somme became a cornerstone of Unionism’s justification: its fallen dead had paid in their own blood to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Although the number of southern Irishmen who served in the British Armed Forces was far greater, the emerging Free State and subsequent Republic chose to forget about the sacrifices of its own citizens.

But the peace process has wrought a profound change in cross-border attitudes towards Ireland’s shared history, and the Somme commemoration this weekend is being seen as a consequence of that.

In an editorial this week The Irish Times said that the 1998 Good Friday agreement had allowed a common history “to be examined anew and to be publicly acknowledged in a completely different way”.

The ceremony comes hard on the heels of the revival two months ago of a state military parade through the centre of Dublin to commemorate the 1916 Rising.

Televised live, the ceremony had been abandoned with the outbreak of the modern Troubles in the North. However, the ruling Fianna Fail party, which Mr Ahern leads, judged that it was a propitious moment to “reclaim” a part of the state’s history, which had been “colonised” by Sinn Fein, the Provisional IRA’s political wing. Last week Mr Ahern unveiled a postage stamp commemorating the Battle of the Somme, in a very public acknowledgement of Ireland’s British military history.

Both the 36th (Ulster) Division and the 16th (Irish) Division took part in the Battle of the Somme. Politicians of the time hoped that the common experience of Unionists and nationalists fighting alongside one another would heal rifts in Ireland over plans to grant the island Home Rule. In the event, Unionists saw themselves as fighting to remain part of the UK while nationalists believed that their participation would hasten Home Rule.

 

[big bad john]

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/CommemorativeBookletOnSommeNowAvailable.htm

Commemorative booklet on Somme now available
28 Jun 06
To tie in with the Battle of the Somme’s 90th anniversary commemoration events the MODs Veterans Policy Unit have produced a booklet about the battle, which is available from today as a pdf download, see related links.


The Battle of the Somme Commemorative Booklet
The booklet gives a good overview of the background to the First World War, the British Army, preparations and tactics for the battle, details of the battle itself and those who fought in it, the aftermath of the battle and details of the site today.

The booklet will act as a souvenir to those taking part of the 90th anniversary events and also help educate anyone not going to France for the commemorations, but who is interested in the Battle.

The anniversary will be marked on 1st July, the day the battle commenced in 1916, with events at key sites of the battlefield in northern France.

 

[Michael OLeary]

See

Generals, Generalship and History; split from Re: The Somme
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46532.0.html

for the split tangent on generalship.

 

[big bad john]

There are 6 new articles on the Somme on the MOD web site worth a look.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/

 

[Kat Stevens]

Just finished watching a 2 hour doc on the history channel about this.  Over a million casualties on all sides, what a meat grinder....

 

[Red 6]

The Recruiting Sergeant:

Two recruiting sergeants came to the CLB,
for the sons of the merchants, to join the Blue Puttees
So all the hands enlisted, five hundred young men
Enlist you Newfoundlanders and come follow me

They crossed the broad Atlantic in the brave Florizel,
And on the sands of Suvla, they entered into hell
And on those bloody beaches, the first of them fell

[Chorus]
So it's over the mountains, and over the sea
Come brave Newfoundlanders and join the Blue Puttees
You'll fight the Hun in Flanders, and at Galipoli
Enlist you Newfoundlanders and come follow me

Then the call came from London, for the last July drive
To the trenches with the regiment, prepare yourselves to die
The roll call next morning, just a handful survived.
Enlist you Newfoundlanders and come follow me

[Chorus]

The stone men on Water Street still cry for the day
When the pride of the city went marching away
A thousand men slaughtered, to hear the King say
Enlist you Newfoundlanders and come follow me

[Chorus x3]

 

[Bill DD]

In To-days copy of 'The Daily Mail' there is the following dedication.  I thought you might like to share these thoughts:

'In Memory of the NEWFOUNDLANDERS and LABRADORIANS who fought at the Battle of the Beaumont Hamel on 1st July 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme.

The Newfoundland Regiment, now the Royal Newfoundland Regiment was decimated in the attack. Seven Hundred and ten of the 790 officers and men who went into action became casualties: 272 were killed , died of their wounds or were missing and presumed dead, and 438 others were wounded. The British Army suffered 57,500 casualties that morning; no other unit paid a greater toll than the Newfoundland Regiment. We remember their gallantry & heroism

They were Better than the Best.

 

[54/102 CEF]

I clipped the Somme chapter out from the CEF History for you. See www.cobwfa.ca

and of course I put in an advertising plug for Army.ca and its SOMME 90 Years On thread!

HAPPY CANADA DAY WEEKEND EVERYONE!

 

[Bill DD]

1st class web site -have saved in favorites to explore at my leisure

 

[big bad john]

In an unusual move the MOD has publish a non casualty report on a Saturday, it is about the Somme.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/LochnagarCeremonyBeginsDayOfSommeCommemorations.htm

Lochnagar ceremony begins day of Somme commemorations
1 Jul 06
At precisely 0728 on the morning of 1st July 1916, a huge mine was detonated at La Boisselle to launch the British offensive along an 18 mile front.


A sombre ceremony takes place at Lochnagar crater in the early morning mist, Saturday 1 July 2006, ninety years on from the exact moment that signalled the start of the Battle of the Somme.
[Picture: Lance Corporal Lewis Montague; Black Watch, 3rd Battalion, Royal Regt of Scotland]
The blast hurled debris a mile into the air and left a crater, now known as Lochnagar crater, 200 feet across and 90 feet deep, which subsequently became the scene of fierce fighting for control of its rim.

At exactly the same moment this morning, Saturday 1 July 2006, 90 years later, a rocket flare soared into a clear morning crater, blew, an eerie echo of the sound thousands of 'Tommies' heard as they nervously waited to begin their perilous advance across a pulverised no-mans-land.

A loan piper advanced around the crater rim and joined the Somme pipe band next to a large wooden cross, scene of today's ceremony. Prayers, readings, and instrumental recitals lent dignity to the occasion, with a liturgy of inscriptions from a selection of graves up and down the Somme valley.

These inscriptions were slowly read out as organisations from Britain, France and Germany laid their wreaths. Before them stood nine small wooden crosses, each bearing a rusting British, French or German tin hat. The congregation of more than a thousand people stood silent as the colours and standards of the Royal British Legion, Army Cadets and other veterans' organisations were lowered for the 'Last Post'.

Silence

Then, two minutes silence, broken only by birdsong, the very birdsong that survivers of the first day's fighting remember as the week long artillery bombardment lifted and they waited for the whistle to go.

As the bugle notes drifted away, young children carrying baskets of poppy petals walked to the crater's edge and cast them to the summer breeze. It is almost certain that wherever they landed, ninety years ago a young man would have fallen.

One of those present, Colonel Hugh Boscawen, Director of Defence Studies for the Army, said:

"It is hard to believe, looking at this prosperous countryside, that so many people fought and died here. It is important, if we wish to honour these men, that we strive to work to avoid this sort of conflict and to gain the peace that these soldiers were prepared to die for.

"It is humbling to be able to visit these places today and to see the cemeteries like true "English gardens". We wish to pay our respects to those who fought here and also to make sure we learn the lessons we can draw from this momentous battle."

 

[sarntmajor1951]

The BBC gave excellent courage to the commemoration service for the Newfoundland Contribuition to that battle sadly little known to the average Brit.The band and guard of honour looked excellent and splendid ambassadors for Canada and her great army. A brief account was given of the part played by the Newfoundlanders and their hoffific casualty rate. They showed the band and guard marching on and the address by the Colinel in Chief HRH Princess Royal an d the singing of "Ode to Newfoundland" by the attending persons.
I hope this is of interest to all patriotic Canadians with high regards from a British admirer of our cousins across the pond.