The Spartans Were Morons

[Remius]

Surprised nobody noted, in the "Spartan are the State" topic that in Sparta, it was the women who owned the land and buildings and made the political decisions under the rule of the Queen. The men, well, they were the labourers tilling the land when not at war and soldiers.

Not quite.  Women did enjoy more rights than most women of that era.  They did own property and had inheritance rights.  There are a few notable Queens that may have had some influence but Sparta was rules by two kings (from two family lines) and two councils of elders that were all men.  but one could say that if you owned everything then maybe you had some influence.

Also Spartans were  only allowed to have one profession.  Soldier.  No manual labour of any sort like tilling fields or farming was allowed.  that's what the helots were for.

 

[Altair]

While the spartans were defeated well and proper at leuctra,  let's not forget that they were the winners of the  three Peloponnesian wars that preceded that battle,  and they were the only part of Greece not conquered by the macedonians.

Morons or not,  the Spartans were no slouches.

 

[Remius]

While the spartans were defeated well and proper at leuctra,  let's not forget that they were the winners of the  three Peloponnesian wars that preceded that battle,  and they were the only part of Greece not conquered by the macedonians.

Morons or not,  the Spartans were no slouches.

So Spartans won about 15 major encounters and lost 22 in their time.  While they did win the Peloponnesian wars they couldn’t keep their influence and power long term. 

Untrue about the Macedonians.  By then they (Sparta) were pretty much a non threat.  Philip did enter the area and pretty much stripped Sparta of all her lands except the actual city and gave it to surrounding city states that submitted to him.  He turned his attention to Persia instead of pressing the issue.  When King Agis tried to rebel against Alexander, he was defeated by Parmenian and was killed along with a good chunk of what was left of Sparta’s finest.  Many of the Greek states wanted them dealt with harshly.  Alexander apparently was lenient but forced a pile of concessions on them.  including them joining the Corinthian League.

After that they became essentially the Upper Canada Village of the ancient world.

I’ll restate that I don’t agree that they were morons. Overrated and doomed to failure is more with what I agree with. Formidable sure, but they had a good propaganda machine.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So Spartans won about 15 major encounters and lost 22 in their time.  While they did win the Peloponnesian wars they couldn’t keep their influence and power long term.

They also had 30 Tyrants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants

... which says a lot about how important it is to not lose a major war against one of your socio-economic rivals.

 

[Remius]

They also had 30 Tyrants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants

... which says a lot about how important it is to not lose a major war against one of your socio-economic rivals.

Oh yes.  And it seems that the more they tried to turn Athens into another oligarchy the more resistance they created until they were overthrown.

 

[FJAG]

That much could be said of many soldiers over the centuries.  My dad respected and admired the German Paras they kept meeting in Italy.  He said they were magnificent opponents.

ff topic: My dad was one of them. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for him and me) Italy (Sicily actually) was his last fight. After that he spent the last two years of the war in Scotland as a guest of His Majesty the King.

:cheers:

 

[Blackadder1916]

ff topic: My dad was one of them. . . .

Spartan? Moron? . . . oh, now I understand. Should always read the full item with references and not just the headline.

 

[FJAG]

Spartan? Moron? . . . oh, now I understand. Should always read the full item with references and not just the headline.

:not-again:  :waiting:

 

[a_majoor]

Wouldn't the historians of the day, really be more like the MSM of the day? 

Herodotus, Thucydides (the other one) and Xenophon would like a word with you.....

I’m not 100% sure but I’m pretty sure just about anything contemporary was written by non Spartan writers.  Herodotus is generally considered a pretty good source though.  Spartans weren’t much on writing.  Not due to any lack of ability but it goes to the minimalistic aspect of their culture.

Actually, both Thucydides and Xenophon ended up writing not only about the Spartans, but in Sparta and among the Peloponnesian allies due to being exiled from Athens.

 

[a_majoor]

My point was that, individually, Spartans were the honey badgers of the ancient world. Tough, aggressive, tenacious, and fearless .

Pericles had a pretty bad assed boast about the Athenians:

"If we turn to our military policy, there also we differ from our antagonists. We throw open our city to the world, and never by alien acts exclude foreigners from any opportunity of learning or observing, although the eyes of an enemy may occasionally profit by our liberality; trusting less in system and policy than to the native spirit of our citizens; while in education, where our rivals from their very cradles by a painful discipline seek after manliness, at Athens we live exactly as we please, and yet are just as ready to encounter every legitimate danger. In proof of this it may be noticed that the Lacedaemonians do not invade our country alone, but bring with them all their confederates; while we Athenians advance unsupported into the territory of a neighbour, and fighting upon a foreign soil usually vanquish with ease men who are defending their homes. Our united force was never yet encountered by any enemy, because we have at once to attend to our marine and to dispatch our citizens by land upon a hundred different services; so that, wherever they engage with some such fraction of our strength, a success against a detachment is magnified into a victory over the nation, and a defeat into a reverse suffered at the hands of our entire people. And yet if with habits not of labour but of ease, and courage not of art but of nature, we are still willing to encounter danger, we have the double advantage of escaping the experience of hardships in anticipation and of facing them in the hour of need as fearlessly as those who are never free from them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Spartan? Moron? . . . oh, now I understand. Should always read the full item with references and not just the headline.

I knew he was old, but had no idea......  ;D

 

[Remius]

Herodotus, Thucydides (the other one) and Xenophon would like a word with you.....

Actually, both Thucydides and Xenophon ended up writing not only about the Spartans, but in Sparta and among the Peloponnesian allies due to being exiled from Athens.

For true Laconophiles (yes that us actually a term) Xenophon is a very good source of info.  He is very biased but he is also critical of how much the Spartans had fallen from grace. That's if you want a true picture of the Spartans and not what Hollywood wants you to think.  Note that he also fought with the Spartans. 

I'm putting his book Polity of the Lakedemonians on my reading list.  Currently re-reading Herodotus' Histories as this thread has rekindled my interest in the subject.