"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Andyboy]

What I'm confused about is why some people can't seem to make a reasoned argument without resorting to being insulting.

 

[paracowboy]

I guess I am a little confused with all this whining. The kit you have is just fine.

no, it isn't. It's crap. I'd prefer my web gear to this crap. By your own statement, you're no longer in, and have never used this crap. So, if those who are in, and are using this crap, are complaining about it, maybe there's a reason.

 

[mdh]

For the rest of is who aren't satisfied how about allowing us the option of buying our own? Other than offending someone's ego, what difference does it make?

The subject is outside my lane, but Andyboy raises a good point - why not allocate money to each soldier and allow them to buy their own TVs? (I suppose one downside would be resupply i.e your gucci TV goes kaput and you need another one but only the issue version is available) - but the advantages would probably outweigh the disadvantages overall.

cheers, mdh

 

[Unknown Factor]

The real question is why did thius stuff even go into production in the first place? Being one of the lucky ones to have trialed the first version (jean jacket upgrade) we basically had nothing good to say to DLR and told them to throw it out.  Then a new version of it in OD was fasioned and thrown out to the troops to trial and it was thrown back like a three eyed fish. Suddenly they managed to come to an agreement over Cadpat and "surprise" out came the new improved version the basis of the one you see today.  Basically my jist of the whole deal is that the powers that be, and I am talking about the Officer put in charge of the project was in Bosnia in the early tours, saw what the troops were doing to their flax jackets and came to a personal conclusion that that was the way of the future.  So we have no one else to thank but him, even when he got replaced halfway throught the project so much money was spent already that the only way to justify the cost was to continue.

Long and short is that we are going to be stuck with this new piece of s@&* for no other reason other than now that it is here CSM's love it as it is near impossible to personalise it without major modifications, which of course are not authorized.  So in the army's infinate wisdom they once again ignored the soldiers that would be using the equipment and insead allowed the "Brass" to push something forward without concensus.  I'm sure those that were involved with the program got a glowing PER for their steadfast aproach to the LBV, but in reality it's just another oxymoron as it is anything but a 'LOAD BEARING VEST'.

An interm solution to the problem was brought forward allowing CBT Arms Units the option of wearing the vest, but in the end of the day that only lasted until the last soldier in the regular force was issued a vest of their own.  The push now from the CF CWO with of course the support of everyone of his Dinosaur buddies throughout the Brigades and units is uniformity amoungst all pers in the reg force regardless of their job or task, something we all know is not feasable.  We could look at this in a positive light and that is that everyone of these 'Dino's' are due to retire in the very near future - god willing.

 

[Britney Spears]

OK, back to Phil's question. Am I to understand that the era of CO discretion for aftermarket Load bearing equipment is now over, and that it is now TV or nothing?

I wonder if 82 Ptn webbing is still allowed......

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The old webbing is still being used by recruits and possibly some reserve units.  I also think low priority units (ie Airforce) may still be using webbing.

The Brits are allowed to buy from certain companies.  If it craps out in an operation then QM is gonna give ya the issued stuff.  You think that if your special Danners crap out that your authorized in Canada that QM is gonna give ya new Danners your mistaken.  You'll get the standard boot until such time that you can order new Danners.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

ps as long as its the same colour or pattern then I don't think its such a big deal.

 

[Britney Spears]

The old webbing is still being used by recruits and possibly some reserve units.

Well I know that, because I'm still using mine! Specifically will it be allowed in Khandahar.

 

[Unknown Factor]

ps as long as its the same colour or pattern then I don't think its such a big deal.

I agree, however the next difficult task is finding Canadian companies that are willing to put products forward at a resonable price, personally if I need anything I go to the States, it's cheaper and more speciffic to my needs than some guy making it in his basement and then over charging me for the work.

Well I know that, because I'm still using mine! Specifically will it be allowed in Khandahar.

Whether or not it is allowed will be based solely on who is going to be the Camp SM, if he's a dinosaur then it's going to be a bun fight and that's where the influences of OC's come in handy.  I do know from my last tour that the difficulty we had in wearing our own rigs was not neccessarly because of the camp SM but rather our adoptive SM from another unit who had no idea what our requirments were.  You have to remember that those that are making desicions for us now are still of the 'do this, like this' leadership rather than those that use common sense, not to worry though they all have to be retiring soon.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Ah I understand your question now.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I watched  a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready  to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What  would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what  they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,  underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my  thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

 

[Britney Spears]

I watched  a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that  point. Once you start changing kit around and  wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that  could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.  I realize that sounds stupid.  It does make sense in the big picture,  you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.  Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.  An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready  to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What  would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what  they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,  underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my  thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

:crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: Oh god make it stop make it stop make it stop

 

[devil39]

Well, different strokes for different folks.

Canadian soldiers will look like Canadian soldiers regardless whether I let them (and have) wear civvy hiking boots or chest rigs, etc.  We also do our level best to keep track of the location of troops under our command.  I never had any problems identifying Canadian soldiers on operations, and some of them wore very different kit.  Not to mention I have had Brits, Yanks (SOF types too), and many many journalists attached on operations I have conducted.  I didn't make them dress up like Canadians.  Didn't shoot any of them either.

Look like a Canadian soldier, dress to survive and be most effective in the field I would say.  Until the Army provides the perfect field kit for all environments (which will never happen), I'm happy to allow modifications to suit the needs.  Mindless uniformity should have gone out with the order to "Form Square" and "Form Line" while dressed in scarlets and white cross belts.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

if you look at a guy in CADPAT TV or another CADPAT chest rig I doubt you'd be able to see the difference from over 20 feet away.

devil39 I hope there are more out there like you.

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Who ever wrote that quote is right out to lunch. First of all if you can't identify your own vehicles (there aren't too many to recognize) then you shouldn't be behind or in the turret, launcher, etc. Just because someone is wearing different combat boots, jesus, is not going to give him a 3rd head and turn him purple! Once again, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, know your allies and your enemies. There is this thing called the Internet, and on it you can find every piece of gear that our allies (including us, who would have thought eh!) use. NATO standards? Now there is a contradiction in terms! The Canadian gov't spent almost $1 million on this tac-vest, why? And the rucksack, when are we going to see this, 2870? Look at our allies and the gear their using, a s*** load is commercially purchased and it appear's their countries are still democratic! Like I've stated once somewhere, uniformity doesn't win battles and if you want to be garrison kiss ass then join a parade unit. Professional soldiers want to do that, and that encompasses a lot (god forbid that), if soldiers want to use issued kit, fine, if they want to buy their own, it's their own $$$, no one else. And what is looking Canadian?

​

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Devil39, I stated exactly what you said, just a with a little more sarcasm!

 

[Old Ranger]

Devil39,

That last Post almost makes me want to re-enlist

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I watched   a show on CBC Canada and it was dealing with the first peacekeeping mision to yougo, bonsia ( over there)the CSM ordered all non issued kit to be put away and not to be worn in the field. Not because it was better or worse then the supplied kit but because he wanted all the soldiers in the unit to look like Canadians, he did not want them to mistaken for other soldiers and targeted, or be mistaken for the guns for hire people.

I would have to agree with him on that   point. Once you start changing kit around and   wearing extras you do change the look of the soldier and that   could lead to problems at a distance identifying a soldier as a Canadian, or American, could lead to them ID'd as an unknown and could be shot by either side.   I realize that sounds stupid.   It does make sense in the big picture,   you change how a tank looks and then you think you see an ememy tank and it is your own and you fire upon it.   Chnange the look of A Canadian soldier and you shot one of your own guys or girls.

Other side of the coin to this is.   An issused piece of equipment is tested and retested to the NATO standard, they research and collect data on kit all the time and see how it preforms and if the performance is not up to standard they recall it. Your own purchases leave you to deal with the lack of performace and if there is a break down in your personally owned kit, are you ready   to deal with it on your own. Do you want to risk your store bought vest over the army one and hope they made it to the same standards as the army verst or better?

What   would be next bring your own uniforms to war? everyone dress in what   they think they need to wear? Bring your own fire power, and bring your own comms grear?

I think own knife, under clothes, boots,   underwear, socks, a few comfort items is all you need to provide on your own and some of that is pushing it
just my   thoughts dress like your a Canadian Soldier, act like a Canadian Soldier and not a war surplus poster

Sorry mate, but from a previous post you made, isn't your experience pretty much limited to Reserve Finance Clerk?  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33430/post-251500.html#msg251500
"When i was res fin clerk in the army   total course time and i was trained to a ql6a was 6 weeks of total classroom training and that was it."

Do you have any overseas tours?   If not, you might want to stay in your own lane.

From my experience, it doesn't matter what uniform/kit you're weaing overseas.   If the locals decide that they don't want you there it doesn't matter if you're wearing cadpat head to toe or a bozo the clown outfit, they're going to 'let their opinions' be known.

 

[Unknown Factor]

if you look at a guy in CADPAT TV or another CADPAT chest rig I doubt you'd be able to see the difference from over 20 feet away.

Isn't this the truth!  I'd suggest that we should test this in Basic any future Canadian soldier that is unable to recognize another at a min of 20' is booted out!  If it is green or Cadpat wear it, uniformity is to be left for the parade square not the battlefield. Besides if all the new guys are encouraged to wear their own stuff, the enemy might just think that they are in charge and shoot them first, giving the rest of us enough time to duck! - oh and get some free kit once the firefight is over!

But for all those regimental types that still insist that an effective fighting force is dictated by the uniformity of their clothing all the way up to their ability to dress off on a frontal attack I'd say get you head out of your arse and put yourself in the shoes of the soldiers posting here that are working the beat and not the desk.  Experience will always over ride TI and rank, so find some and then post, until then go home and cover off your tin soldiers! To the rest, I simpathize with your plight and encourage you to carry on the good fight - "we'll wear what you want us to on parade, but we'll wear what we want in the field and on operations."

Oh and FormerHorseGuard - there is no NATO standard, if there was we'd all be wearing the same kit and just because it is made in bulk does not guarantee it's quality either, I've seen more returns and repairs required for the new LBV than I ever did with the old webbing.

 

[pappy]

Matt, boy do I understand those 4/4/4's sucks....  when I was a young pup Marine I thought Guard Duty sucks as a PFC can't wait till I'm Sgt. of the Guard, wow that's the ticket....  So young so stupid....  SOG was even worse.....

Back to the original question...  some non-issue kit makes life a tad more comfy.  a nice light weight wind shirt you can wear under your issue combats is worn it's weight in gold and the good ones don't weigh much and pack the size of a wallet.

"Superfeet" inserts, Comfy non-issue socks, you only got two feet keep them happy....

Comfy shorts / briefs.... you only got two of those too so keep them comfy too Under Armor or like items

Shades, two pair at least, you got two eyes too, don't piss them off either....