The War of 1812 Merged Thread

[Michael OLeary]

Discussions on the Battle of Paardeburg or the South African War can be interesting, at the moment though (on this thread) I am interested in unrecognized Canadian battle honours.

Then perhaps you should not have started your discussion by criticising those that have been awarded, it only undermines the credibility of any argument to expand recognition to previously unrecognized actions (to call them "unrecognized Canadian battle honours" is at this point a misnomer).

 

[George Wallace]

I try this approach:
If I find a post personally upsetting, I read it twice. There is always the possibility that I have not understood it correctly.

Your posting style is very upsetting and I had to read your post several times.

You seem to put little importance in the existing history of Canada, promoting your agenda.  Sorry, but we have a very strong history, and it does include expeditions outside of our borders.  You tend to trivialize their importance with your statements.

You and Mr Smy are fixated on Battle Honours for Regiments that no longer have any lineages, or predate the formation of 'Canadian' Regiments.  They aren't perpetuated in the histories of current Regiments, because the History of Canada's fighting Forces starts with the creation of Canada as a Sovereign Nation in 1867.  Those Battle Honours and Colours from prior to that date have been 'retired' and placed in places of honour (as is tradition for the retiring of Colours) to 'rot on their staffs'.  The same thing will happen to any current Regiment that is Disbanded with no other Regiment to 'perpetuate' their history.

Perhaps you should do some research into the Traditions and Customs of the CF, Directorate of History and Heritage directions in regards to Regimental Colours, Guidons, etc.   You may find some of that research a lot more enlightening and correct many of the misconceptions you currently have.

 

[warrickdll]

Then perhaps you should not have started your discussion by criticising those that have been awarded

I agree. If I had started off with something like:

Alongside perpetuated honours such as those for the Battle of Paardeburg should also be those from battles fought in the Wars prior to Confederation - battles in wars, which had great influence on the course of Canadian history.

There is the possibility that if I had written it in this way I could have avoided the responses, or at least toned them down. I'm leery at saying this for certain though.

Then perhaps you should not have started your discussion by criticizing those that have been awarded, it only undermines the credibility of any argument to expand recognition to previously unrecognized actions

Agreed. Unnecessary ranting or hyperbole will diminish the credibility of the argument. However, some have decided to conduct arguments by first attempting to diminish their general credibility and therefore avoiding the actual discussion points. Good tactics if your only purpose is to win arguments - but it makes for poor discourse.

unrecognized actions (to call them "unrecognized Canadian battle honours" is at this point a misnomer).

I will see your misnomer and raise you an - "unrecognized actions" would be idiomatic to many.

 

[warrickdll]

Your posting style is very upsetting and I had to read your post several times.

You seem to put little importance in the existing history of Canada, promoting your agenda.  Sorry, but we have a very strong history, and it does include expeditions outside of our borders.  You tend to trivialize their importance with your statements.

You and Mr Smy are fixated on Battle Honours for Regiments that no longer have any lineages, or predate the formation of 'Canadian' Regiments.  They aren't perpetuated in the histories of current Regiments, because the History of Canada's fighting Forces starts with the creation of Canada as a Sovereign Nation in 1867.  Those Battle Honours and Colours from prior to that date have been 'retired' and placed in places of honour (as is tradition for the retiring of Colours) to 'rot on their staffs'.  The same thing will happen to any current Regiment that is Disbanded with no other Regiment to 'perpetuate' their history.

Perhaps you should do some research into the Traditions and Customs of the CF, Directorate of History and Heritage directions in regards to Regimental Colours, Guidons, etc.   You may find some of that research a lot more enlightening and correct many of the misconceptions you currently have.

First off, even where a few viewpoints coincide, it is probably best to respond to Mr Smy directly - I wouldn't want my opinions to taint his endeavour.

Secondly, I am actively attempting to not upset anyone.

Onwards...

You misunderstand my difference of opinion as stemming from ignorance on the topic.

I understand you are of the opinion that the current use and rules regarding battle honours are as they should be, or you at least seem unwilling to change them.

I, on the other hand would put forward the following:
- Regimental lineage should be more dynamic
- Canadian military history predates confederation and therefore so should the regimental lineage
- I am not troubled by honorary lineage where direct lineages cannot be established


As for the part about trivializing… well, what has been said has been said. I am sensing that there is not a shortage of items we can disagree upon.

 

[Bill Smy]

Hey, guys. Didn't mean to start a  :rage: p*** contest.

I note Mr Wallace's statement, "...because the History of Canada's fighting Forces starts with the creation of Canada as a Sovereign Nation in 1867. ". I may be wrong, but I think as far as lineage is concerned, it begins with the Militia Act of 1855, and that nothing is officially recognized before that.

Thanks for your comments. They'll be helpful as I develop the proposal.

 

[luggage70]

I was wondering if there was a roll call for the Newfoundland Fencibles 1803 - 1814? I have come across an 1816 roll call of this unit being discharged. I've also came across a roll call of the Newfoundland Regiment 1782 but I think it may have disbanded either 1795 or 1802.

 

[qyrang]

Amazing!!! we are the only corp in Canada with 1st American...that's incredible. If I'm wrong please correct me or PM me.

 

[Bill Smy]

The Queen's Rangers started out as a Loyalist unit on the Provincial Establishment. I'm not quite sure when the British re-organized their land forces in North America, but I think it was 1781. In that re-organization five Provincial Corps were placed on the American Establishment (a regular army establishment), and although they kept their former designations, they were numbered 1 to 5.

By the end of the Revolution the Rangers were recruiting extensively in the UK, and the number of American-born members shrank accordingly.

The date of the reorganization plays an important part in the dating of the historic Regimental Colours that the QYR own. They came out of Simcoe's estate in England. The title 1st American appears on the regimental device, so they cannot pre-date the re-organization. Some state, however, that they date to Simcoe's tenure as Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada, 1791-1802.

 

[Bill Smy]

To expand and correct my previous post:-

Three Provincial Corps were placed on the American Establishment in May 1779:-

Queen's Rangers - 1st American Regiment
Volunteers of Ireland - 2nd American Regiment
New York Volunteers - 3rd American Regiment

Two Provincial Corps were placed on the American Establishment in March 1781:-

King's American Regiment - 4th American Regiment
British Legion - 5th American Regiment

 

[Red 6]

Wait a minute! The Bristish sacked Washington? That's it.... we need to invade London :threat:

 

[Danjanou]

Wait a minute! The Bristish sacked Washington? That's it.... we need to invade London :threat:

You did....oh you mean London England, that London............well nevermind :-[

 

[Red 6]

London, England of course. Ya'll up north are on our sides, right?

 

[Danjanou]

London, England of course. Ya'll up north are on our sides, right?

Yup we're on you Southeners side, we plumb almost got them Yankees surrounded now ;D

 

[Red 6]

Well, that's good to hear. Anyway, with all that snow up north, we couldn't start fires, right? (Not that we would since ya'll are on our side...)

 

[TCBF]

"Anyway, with all that snow up north, we couldn't start fires, right?"

- Best place to start fires - they keep you warm, and they mostly don't go anywhere (in the winter -that is).

;D

 

[Red 6]

Oh yeah, right. What was I thinkin' about?  Fires...Winter...Snow

 

[ExSarge]

"Anyway, with all that snow up north, we couldn't start fires, right?"

- Best place to start fires - they keep you warm, and they mostly don't go anywhere (in the winter -that is).

;D

We are allowed to start fires?  I really got to start reading the memo's!

 

[Echo9]

One item to add:  apparently, the King's Regiment (in Liverpool/ Manchester) still has mementos from the sack of Washington in their regimental museum.  This includes a collection that I'm sure the smithsonian would want to get- Dolly Madison's china.


This shouldn't be surprising, as the Kings have a reputation for being light fingered- the joke goes: Ali Baba only had forty thieves, the CO of the King's has 800!

 

[Red 6]

That's a good one, Echo9! ;D

 

[Bill Smy]

For Immediate Release
Sunday, July 23, 2006

CRAITOR CALLS FOR RED RIBBON COMMISION to CELEBRATE 1812 WAR BICENTENNIAL

Wants Feds and Provincial Govts to reclaim Lundy's Lane battlefield as a
Bicentennial Gift to the nation

Niagara Falls - Niagara Falls MPP, Kim Craitor, called on the province to
establish a Red Ribbon Commission to bring sharper focus to the efforts to
celebrate the Bicentennial of the War of 1812-14. "If we are to capitalize
on the opportunity and realize the tourist benefits of this significant
event, our current efforts need to be knocked up a notch," he said before a
receptive crowd in attendance at celebrations celebrating 194th anniversary
of the Battle of Lundy's Lane.

The Battle of Lundy's Lane is the bloodiest battle ever fought in Canada and
apart from the siege at Fort Erie for all intent and purposes marked the end
of the battle for Niagara.

Craitor mentioned that earlier this year that Gord West, Chair of the City
of Niagara Falls Board of Museums brought to his attention that we are fast
approaching the Bi-centennial of the War of 1812-14.

"The Americans," he said "look on this war as a crucial test for their
constitution and their newly established democratic government while Canada
should see this epoch as a defining moment in our nation building process
that was to culminate some 50 years later in a great country called Canada.
We need to recognize, educate and celebrate these facts."

Craitor continued, "The Americans recognize the importance of this war and
are proposing the establishment of a Bicentennial Commission and have
introduced legislation in the Congress we need to do really focus or the war
on the Canadian frontier will be a sideshow."

Niagara played a pivotal role in this war with the battles of Stoney Creek,
Queenston Heights, Chippawa, Beaverdams, the occupation of Fort George and
Lundy's Lane not to mention the forging of some of our provincial heroes
such as Laura Secord and Sir Isaac Brock.

The war itself played out all over North America and it seems to Craitor, it
is not too early for us to begin to plan to make this historic bi-centennial
anniversary a Bi-National Celebration of great import!

Craitor will be writing Jim Bradley and the Ontario Marketing Tourist Board
to propose that a special Red Ribbon Bi-National (Canada) Committee of
interested parties (in Niagara, South West and Eastern Ontario) be asked to
develop an action plan to educate our young and old alike and at the same
time to bring the world to our battlefields.

He also hopes that in the process action can be stimulated on the part of
the Provincial and Federal governments to leave a bi-centennial gift to
Canada - to reclaim this Lundy's Lane battlefield site as Canada's most
significant battlefield and to develop the attraction on par with Gettysburg
in the US.

Craitor said "Perhaps it would be helpful if we could define a vision and
develop a master plan for this sacred ground that would make our case and
give our request more visibility - a new battle plan for Lundy's Lane, sort
of speak.

It is now or never to make the arguments to bring to this site the stature
it deserves."

To that end he has written the Minister of Culture supporting the request of
the City of Niagara Falls about seeking funds to acquire the adjacent school
property.

-30-

For More Information Contact:

Ron Planche 905-357-0681


Ron Planche
Executive Assistant to
Kim Craitor, MPP
Parliamentary Assistant (Corrections)
Ministry of Community Safety and Corrections

Phone: (905)357-0681
Queen's Park (416)325-0790
Mobile: (905) 401-5699
Home: (905) 357-0809
Email: [email protected]
Email2 [email protected]