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Thoughts on deployment/rotation length & HLTA

I am undecided on this issue, but to say that you cannot receive it due to operational reasons, will IMHO result in fighting troops (those that arguably need leave the most), who are continually short handed not getting a leave, while those in "softer" positions get theirs. Just hypothetical but, my two cents.
 
On my tour, our leave was set up so only a certain capped number were away at one time, and this did not reflect any operational shortfalls. We functioned excellent in good times and bad, and were as tenacious as if we were at full strength, with the only complaint that if one was away he missed some action.

We were at 100% capacity from 'X' weeks into the tour, and 'X' weeks on the other side coming out, and went home as a complete group, shy of the ones we lost (no KIAs on my tour).

All balanced out, all ranks had their time away, and aside from the odd mugging in Europe with a bloke who was on the grog too much and let his guard down, to the odd bar fight either at home or again in Europe somewhere, there was no dramas. Boys will be boys  ;D

OWDU
 
Having been deployed for the last 3 years in a 2 month on 1 month off ratio, the only point I would use HLTA for is if you post units over for the durations.

Frankly the lack of number the CF has deployed on the tip of the spear is extremely low, and the rotation rate is low compared to the allies, add in HLTA, and its cheating the system and diminishing the unit capabilities, and endangering the remaining troops for that.



 
Infidel-6 said:
Having been deployed for the last 3 years in a 2 month on 1 month off ratio, the only point I would use HLTA for is if you post units over for the durations.

Frankly the lack of number the CF has deployed on the tip of the spear is extremely low, and the rotation rate is low compared to the allies, add in HLTA, and its cheating the system and diminishing the unit capabilities, and endangering the remaining troops for that.

I have to agree. Counting 'days to do' before mid-tour leave, then counting again for 'day to do' before end of tour is a psychological, and therefore operational, PITA. Also, trying to run operations with 10-20% non-effective due to the leave program is absurd. It's only 6 months folks. Might as well make it 6 good ones (says the guy from the comfort of his armchair).
 
Instead of cutting out HLTA wholesale, which could be a morale issue, simply move it as a block to post tour.  A Task Force will do 6-8 months in theater, will do its decompression, and will then all be cut loose for HLTA as a whole with a report to garrison for AAG after their HLTA.  If they want 3 weeks at home, so be it - it's 3 extra weeks of leave.  If they want a vacation, they get it.
 
Our Australian operational block of leave was war service leave, and only 5 days came out of our rec leave. Extra leave credits are earned while on ops, along with the normal acrue time.

As for the 6 months, to the best of my knowledge when has a tour only lasted 6 months to the day? Like I said ours was 7 months, well 3 days shy of it. So, say 7 months straight, 24 hrs a day being vigilant can cause injuries. In the rear with the gear back in Kuwait is one thing, ( I am not slamming our rear ech pers - they do a great job) but with the SH'nTF in some of the most violent areas of the city of Baghdad is a complete other kettle of fish. OSI's from my tour did not appear until we were RTA'd. An example, one of my RAEME blokes cracked, and missed over 3 months of work once home.

All Australians who come home then take more leave on arrival (actually we work the first week back doing mandatory post op trg), including war service, which is gobbled up first. Most are gone for a month, while many may take up to 6 weeks. Thats the post deployment block.

In my view, the operational leave is required for the benifit of the mental health and rest of all troops. Its good to have a rest. I never had heard one complaint about anyone's leave. It was good for the morale, and a much needed break for the men, and their families too. Personally I came back fully recharged, and again counted the days down to go home. I was happy. To me, it helped pass the time by breaking up the tour, and I, like any human needed the break from the military and ME culture, and a dose of fresh air of the reality other than being in the middle of a most 24hr/day violent society, which surrounded us 360 degrees.

If one was to not allowed any leave, there would be a host of other problems with the men which would not normally be encountered. The days of not getting home for long periods are long gone.

Now the ADF has increased tours to 8 months which means it will run close to 9 months before one is home, with trg etc, thats 12-14 months used depending on the trg program. The ADF grants two leave periods in ops over 9 months, so the new 8 month tours will still have the 14 day period of leave. We had a replacement come in in late Jan of 07, as one of my men was sent home. He was there for our tour, and the next, staying almost 9 months with only 2 wks off. If he would have arrived 4 or 5 days earlier, he would have got his two leave periods.

I guess our army here runs different to the beat of the Canadians. I am sure though that each others Command looks at how things compare.

Australians had 13 months tours in Viet Nam 1962-1975, but that was another war. Times have changed for us, the US are still having long tours in Iraq. Units in our FOB had 15 months, and that is a long time, and the stress on families back in CONUS but be enourmous.

EDIT: Currently the ADF does not have a decompression period like the CF does, although there is 4-5 days in Kuwait, which consists of turning in kit, cleaning and stowing wpns for RTA action, medical, Customs/AQIS for UAB, and psych. Then waiting to catch the bird home, which is only one flight a week. while in Kuwait, the dress is PT gear, and one is left to his own devices taking in perhaps a trip to the Rock for the pool (depends on the season), or hang out at the LSA, doing the MWR tent and of course the USO tent, DFACing, KFCing McRottening or Pizza Huting. It was a long 5 days, trapped in a tent with about 30 farting individuals. We were all CB'd to the LSA due to force protection, so no trips into Kuwait City were allowed.

So in Baghdad one day, a few hrs later in Kuwait, then 5 days of dogfucking in Kuwait, marking time, jumping thru hoops, then the bird home, then home for a day, then back to work for a week, then a month off, then back to work, followed by 90 day POPS, then a 6 month POPS (Post Op Psych Screen).

Regards,

OWDU
 
OP APOLLO Roto 0 , we spent 76 days at sea straight. Then our duty watches alongside then no HLTA. It was hell and it sucked. But we got 2000 dollars in lieu which made up for it. (in retrospect)
Doing our NATO last year, key positions were not entitled to HLTA and it was the biggest demoralizing issue to see fellow sailors flying home or meeting there spouses ashore as you covered there duty watches. We were given two weeks off after we returned.

I think HLTA is a great idea and needed.

Now back to my Duty Watch.
 
Wes, anyone bitching about being based at FOB Union or out at VBC, is really missing hardship.  The same with the current state of KAF, BAF etc.  Frankly your weapons shop is not suffering tactical deficencies likley to get them killed when they are down 2-3 guys.

Op Apollo - 3VP embraced the suck for their tour, which was a lot longer than 76 days.


The only way to make HLTA work is to beef up the units to a 10-15% deployed overage, which in effect would result in 2-3 Bn's cobbled together to make one deployable unit.

MWR facilties at the bigger FOB's allow for troops to decompress from out at FOB Buttfucknowhere, yet they are still around to be and effective delpoyed unit if needed.

Lump all of HLTA onto the disembarkation leave.

 
the 76 days was one of the three patrols we did for a culmination of 7 months.

But it is irrelevant.
 
Infidel-6 said:
Wes, anyone bitching about being based at FOB Union or out at VBC, is really missing hardship.  The same with the current state of KAF, BAF etc.  Frankly your weapons shop is not suffering tactical deficencies likley to get them killed when they are down 2-3 guys.

Hi Kev, hope your Christmas is going well. Been hot here as usual.

I don't know how it works on current CF deployments, but CSS working along side Inf/Armd during our operations on my tour was unique. We are soldiers first and tradesmen second, and we were all too often used during missions outside the IZ, into the 'badlands' as we were all LAV qualified (Dvr and C/Comd), and we all shared the hardship equally alongside our Paratroopers (no paratroopers were LAV qualified) and fellow Lighthorsemen, as our total strength all ranks on the Combat Team was 110 men (qty of pers is not a OPSEC issue its been in the news). If we were not driving or C/Comd'n, we were shooter/operators. As a Sergeant, I wore many hats, and performed many roles at times, including PL Comd, Artificer Sergeant Major, and I was the CSS PL SGT from go to wough (= the PL WO in the CF). Throughout the tour I was busy, at times conducting 20 hr days. However there were times too that no one left the FOB also.

If we did not take our own Type 3 LAV out, we crewed a Type 2. If we were not part of a mission out of the IZ, we manned the RRF, positioned outside the FOB near a VCP on the fringe of the IZ. As for the weapons shop, there was only two of us for the last 3 months, and only me from Nov to Jan, as one of my guys was sent home. RAEME consisted only of a very small number of men, all LAV qualified. We were also out in the IZ daily conducting business. Some of our up armoured SUVs also recieved sniper fire within the IZ.

We pushed as far as city of Taji north of Baghdad, and other areas of the city as required, plus we had been out to about 20km from the Iranian border also. Our Combat Team had more missions outside the wire than any previous tours, and this we were proud of. We took fire and returned fire. Some of my friends recieved citations for action against the enemy. Although we lived at Union III, (it was not a safe place in those days) we were outide the wire often, and being honest, I could not even count how many times I was outside the wire. That was going on 2 yrs ago now, and the level of violence in the city was outragous, with 16,476 citizens of Baghdad killled from Sep 06 - Mar 07, and those were the reported cases through our INTSUMs, not some CNN ratings body count.

The tour for us was very dangerous all the time with daily IDF from either 107mm or 122mm Katyushas and mortars of all sizes (I had two 122mm's come in about 40m from me one day at a market at Assasin's Gate, there was locals killed in right front of us, and a number were injured - there was only 3 of us, and about rather pissed off 150 locals). Plus the threat from insurgents not only outside the wire, but in those days there was roving snipers and a fair bit of 'naughtyness' in the IZ from sympathisers and supporters of the baddies. VBIEDs got through, and often 'favourite haunts' for us were out of bounds do to some threat or another.

We had well over 100 IDF incoming in one evening alone (we were across the street from the new US embassy, and often caught the drop shorts or seen the ones fall into the Tigris which over shot). Some IDF was so close the concusion blew our doors open, or had dust falling and elec conduit blowing off the walls, and we laid low kitted up during stand-to, manning our strong points. Our tour was no cakewalk - it had its moments, and 7 months of that was more than enough. One early morning our Aussie sanctuary also took a direct hit from a 122mm Katyusha, striking a T-wall just  2 metres from an occupied barracks, injuring 5, but that was 9 days before we were on the ground. If that T-wall had not have been there to soak up the brunt of the initial blast there could have been 20 to 30 killed.  Australian Forces had often been deliberatly contacted, with IEDs getting two LAVs in the city from another tour, and a total of 5 or 6 Aussie LAVs lost to IED/EFP within a period of about 18 months. Just lucky there was no KIAs. Our tour was 207 days.

I am simply trying to emphasise that no matter which trade one is in our Army, on these small Combat Teams, we're all equals, all soldiers first. Regardless of trade, one killed is a hardship in itself. We were a Combat Team, we had no REMFs, we were all front line soldiers, and did our bit.

Our leave was indeed welcomed and IMHO we all deserved the break. The Australian position on leave will not change in the forseeable future, but I will sum up and say if there was no leave granted, and as professional soldiers, we would have accepted that and soldiered on, but I beleive any leave is good for both the soldier and his family back home.

Although at the time we joked about the daily danger and always seemed to downplay it, but we later realised when we got home, what we had seen, done and got throught, often with simply luck on our side.

At the end of the day, we each have our opinions about leave, and its pros and cons, and to discuss this on here benifits us all, although we might not agree where each of us sits with it.

Regards,

Wes

As usual, edited for spelling  ;D
 
I have to weigh in here.
First of all, I enjoy HLTA.  I'm currently home on HLTA, and I love it.  Having said that, I am a firm believer that HLTA ought to be scrapped.
First of all, look at the logistics.  Assume 1200 troops on in a unit per rotation, and assume that everyone gets 3 weeks off (including transit), and assume that the tour is 6 months from TOA to TOA.  Also assume that the first month and the last month there is not HLTA due to handovers, etc.  OK, that leaves four months (assume 4.2 weeks/month) for HLTA.  That's 4 x 4.2 weeks for a total of 16.8 weeks.  Hey, its Christmas, so lets make it an even 18 weeks of "HTLA Time" (to make it even).  So, all things being equal, there are 6 HLTA "Blocks" in there, in which everyone "goes away" for 3 weeks.  (I know that blocks overlap and stuff, but just to make it easier for the math involved).  Of those 1200 troops, one person in six is "out" for the "HLTA Time".  That's over 200 persons gone at a time.  That's almost 20 % of the unit "not there" during 2/3 of the tour.  So, in terms of unit effectiveness, that unit is shortchanged almost 20 % for most of the tour. 
I won't even get into the logistics of it!
Now, HLTA sucks in terms of logistics and effectiveness, but I won't just point out a problem without offering a solution.  As everyone knows, people need a break from time to time.  You simply cannot be in combat for 6 months without one.  So, what do you do?  Well, do what our armies did in wars past. R and R.  Not out of country, but take whole platoons and troops and pull them out of the line as the situation warrants.  In other words, a command responsibility to ensure that vehicles, weapons and soldiers get needed maintenance.  Pull them back to KAF (in the example of Afghanistan) and give them a few days to get a haircut, have some coffee, play on the internet and just RELAX.  Go attend church services, play hockey, whatever.  Let them have a few drinks even.  Then, when rested, laundry done, new magazines purchased and the vehicles have had their necessary maintenance and the weapons have been given the once-over, back out they go.  Lock stock and barrel.
One more thing.  The CF is all about post deployment "decompression", complete with briefings, "how to" seminars, etc.  That's a good thing, IMHO, but in our current tours, a dude could be in a raging firefight in Zharey one day, and then back in KAF and homeword bound with nary a briefing on reconnecting with the family and dumped back home: no compression.  Why?  If we stay with the whole HLTA deal "as is", then, IMPO, there must be decompression before heading home, drinking a 40 pounder and pissing themselves after they pass out in the driveway.
So, there it is.  If people know, BEFORE HAND, that they get no HLTA, then they can more easily accept it.  And as suggested elsewhere in this thread, compensate with extra free leave after the tour.
 
As member that was on Op Apollo In 2002 in Afghanistan, we had no HLTA. We did have a 4 day R&R in UAE as a Platoon and also rotation on camp duties. This allowed us to retain our combat strength/effectiveness and on the R&R do a little decompression among peers.

After during numerous UN and NATO tours I found this method to be the most effective and would probably allow units to do longer tours (that is a totally different thread and discussion).

Decompression before returning is one of the most effective tools, for both the member and their families, post tour. When a member goes straight home for a HLTA in the middle of the tour it undermines the whole concept of decompression. So why do we still keep sending soldier straight back? Either also have an additional decompression period prior to going home on HLTA(in theatre or third location) or get rid of the HLTA option when in high threat areas.

A better method for alternative HLTA would be what was place for after our tour in Afghanistan in 2002 and after the 5 day decompression in Guam.
After the tour was a Post Combat Allowance (money in leui of the HLTA), 21 Days of leave (that we were entitled to for regular HLTA), and Special LTA. This allowed the unit to take a 66 day leave period (with annual leave). This allowed member to spent quality time with the family and the money to take a family trip if desired.
 
Overwatch Downunder said:
Our Combat Team had more missions outside the wire than any previous tours, and this we were proud of.


Without wanting to nitpick Wes, but I bet the early SECDETs who spent their entire tours out at the flats in the RZ might disagree with that statement. To be sure, my TP SGT was always whinging that it used to be a lot harder.  :)

On the topic, I found the mid deployment leave to be a complete pain in the butt for a 6 month deployement, as it meant up to 30% of my soldiers were out of country at any one time. The new 8 month deployments should make it easier though. Interestingly, they are beginning to use a new system for the combat elements in Afghanistan so they can all get their leave. Instead of spreading out the leave over as long a time as possible and accepting the loss of personnel, Australia is sending over another complete small combat element for only a few months, which will replace each similiar sized unit in country to allow them to go on their leave. This means there will be no loss of combat power during the leave period. This is more to do with getting maximum troop numbers in country despite Kevin Rudds personnel cap than anything else though.
 
Raven22 said:
Without wanting to nitpick Wes, but I bet the early SECDETs who spent their entire tours out at the flats in the RZ might disagree with that statement. To be sure, my TP SGT was always whinging that it used to be a lot harder.  :)

Hi Sir, that statement came from the OC of X, during his farewell address to us at The Cove. We had a brand new young 'go-getter' Ambassador to Iraq at the time, which was one of the reasons why we were out so often. I did not pull that statement out of my arse  ;) . Early SECDET's tours were only four mouths and there was one which was 2 months (I think that was VIIB). I do beleive VIII was the first 6 month tour. XIV I do believe is the first 8 'monther'.

Cheers from Bribie, and all the best in 09,

Wes
 
Infidel-6 said:
Frankly the lack of number the CF has deployed on the tip of the spear is extremely low, and the rotation rate is low compared to the allies, add in HLTA, and its cheating the system and diminishing the unit capabilities, and endangering the remaining troops for that.
I agree here.  We lack troops on the ground to make any consistent headway, and even at 100% strength we basically only had enough troops to tread water.  Then start trimming back the numbers for HLTA, casualties, tasks (yes, they happen in theatre too), etc.

I like the idea of a longer leave period & the money at end tour with R&R days inside the tour (pull a section of Pl complete for this).  For those gone longer than 6-7 months then we could start considering HLTA back to Canada.
 
I think one point that is being missed is that it is one benefit for all and indeed not every overseas tasking is the same.  I will admit my 6.5 month tour was spent working on KAF where the biggest threat was rocket attacks and food poisoning.  My pre-deployment training began 8 months before I left Canada.  Five weeks before I left for tour my basement flooded and thousands of dollars of damage resulted.  During my HLTA in Sep 08 I was able to do some renovations and landscaping; something that could not be done in Dec.  While I was away my oldest daughter had to be moved away to College and my wife was left with 2 part-time jobs and two teenagers requiring constant taxi service.  Needless to say HLTA was a blessed event in our house. 

My tour consisted of 14-18 hour days and at one point I was covering 3 desks for a 10-day period. My only day off was 1 Jul when I had my only 2-beer day.  Working 7 days a week in a Div-level HQ and Joint Ops Centre (18) for even 3 months straight is mentally tiring and emotionally frustrating.  There were US officers who occupied their desks in the JOC for a one-year period without any HLTA.  Spending shift after shift coordinating MEDEVACs is not the best way to spend a day. This does not in any way to compare to that of a soldier in a FOB constantly being hit by IDF or the brave troops on convoys or patrol on Hwy 1.  If I felt I needed my break, I am positive they feel theirs is well-deserved.  So with an all for one and a one for all, HLTA is what our senior leaders have decided.

A lot of the discussion in this thread is based on TF/BG/unit needs and not necessarily what is best for a soldier on his second or third tour of duty outside the wire.  If there are shortages of personnel then maybe the scale of the op/task/job needs to be scaled down to what is achievable with available resources.  A combat zone is not the place to carry on with our lauded attitude at work in Canada "we will have to make do and hope for the best."

Decompression is an unit or sub-unit level thing again and must be adaptable to the types of job that a soldier fills in theatre.

In summary what is decided for both HLTA and decompression will be a consistent and uniform benefit and allowance for all (with a few very minor exceptions.)  Squeezing a few extra weeks out of troops without a break will lead to more negative results. 
 
Grunt_031 said:
A better method for alternative HLTA would be what was place for after our tour in Afghanistan in 2002 and after the 5 day decompression in Guam.
After the tour was a Post Combat Allowance (money in leui of the HLTA), 21 Days of leave (that we were entitled to for regular HLTA), and Special LTA. This allowed the unit to take a 66 day leave period (with annual leave). This allowed member to spent quality time with the family and the money to take a family trip if desired.

I like this as well.I'm not looking forward to being on our decompression leave with the rest of the battle group at all.I just want to get the tour done and come home.I would really like to see this 66 days off with my family.The only thing I would add is to get rid of hardship for KAF.There is nothing hard,scary,threatening at KAF.Getting haircuts,massages,drinking green bean while telling stories about when you heard a rocket alarm does not validate the hardship.Give the combat troops extra money and more leave at the end of tour.Allow the per's deployed to KAF to keep the usual HLTA.And before someone says x trade leaves the gate from time to time,there will be no perfect method.They scrapped our combat badges,we get paid the same....talk about combat stress lol. ;D
 
KAF has seen its fair share of rockets, but I totally agree that either HA and RA get bumped down 1 level (still tax free) for KAFites (minus NSE truckers and FP guys), or boost HA and RA up a level (which I believe was in the works before my tour) for the FOB pers. When I did my PSO Basic course, the clerk that briefed us got fairly upset when someone asked whether people in KAF get the same allowances as BG pers.

I think the decompression time in Cyprus (maybe find someplace a little cheaper) is a good thing. Winding down and getting as drunk as humanly possible prevented it from happening at home. I know I didn't want to touch alcohol when I got back because I had so much in Cyprus. Sure, binge drinking is bad, but coming home and developing an alcohol problem on leave is probably a heck of a lot worse.
 
PuckChaser said:
Sure, binge drinking is bad, but coming home and developing an alcohol problem on leave is probably a heck of a lot worse. 

Can you clarify why and how you would develop an alcohol problem on leave?  Or are you refering to part of a larger issue?
 
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