Time to Arm Cenotaph Guard? (split from Domestic Terrorism)

[Tibbson]

The Code of Service Discipline is but only one part (Part III of 8 parts) of the National Defence Act.  There are elements of the NDA and regulations made under the act that are specifically applicable to non-military persons (i.e civilians) even if they are not subject to the CSD.  I thought my comment about "everyone is subject to the NDA" was clear in separating the specific CSD part of the act from the wider application of the NDA to everyone, just as "everyone in Canada" is subject to the provisions of every piece of Canadian legislation.

In the broadest sense pretty much everyone in Canada is subject to every other Act but after quickly reviewing the TOC again I still contend that the NDA specifically refers to the establishment and administration of the CAF and that very little of it is intended to apply to non military members.

 

[Tibbson]

Having been involved in regulatory change and have had the Act I regulate fundamental change, this government would make the changes to the NDA in a heartbeat if they felt it served their purpose to have military guard the sentries. It would be an easy sell I suspect as the new section would be specific to the area. The average voter does not give a damm abut jurisdictional squabbles.

I'm sure we all could name a few other sections we'd get them to change while they were at it but I'm sure it is a big IF.  Its easier to pay for the service then it would be to work through the process to changes to the NDA.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I just wanted to add my 25 cents to this.

1) ask yourself the following questions

a) if the soldier is fully armed and loaded C7A2  happens to be shot, the " bad guy" now has access to a fully automatic weapon?
b) if you as the soldier on duty do you want to be the soldier trading fire with a "bad guy" and firing into a crowd of on lookers or civilains?
c) if you are the soldier on guard duty, where are your eyes suppose to be? ( i was the worse soldier on parade my eyes were every where but straight to the front like they should be) You cannot do the drill and be scanning the on lookers for the "badguy"
d) Canadian soldiers ( other than MPs ) do not have law enforcement training or allowed to provide law enforcement duties in Canada, or if they are given that  power where does the line of enforcement get drawn at?  Do we then start giving out speeding tickets or parking tickets, chase down purse snatchers down town Ottawa or do we do military duties ?
e) lets say  you have the powers and there is something that  sounds like a gun shot and you start scanning for a target, do you want to be the guy  who engages a friendly tourist who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?  Headlines around the world would read " Canadian Soldier shoots tourist at the Tomb" 

Things we can do to improve the safety of the guards

With or without a police officers on site.

1) issue light body armour that  would fit under the dress uniform and be some level of protection below full combat body armour
2) take away the dress uniforms and stand the watch in full combat dress with body armour
3) take it as the once in a life time  event it should be and change nothing.
4) remove the guard and let it be as it was in the past.

Just my thoughts

 

[cupper]

Just to throw a wrench into the gears, lets look at an alternate scenario.

For arguments sake, lets agree that we've gone through all of the debate, knicker twisting and teeth gnashing and finally agree to arm the sentries, or more realistically an armed member(s) on site to provide protection to the sentries.

Picture what would happen if a similar incident takes place, only this time the perpetrator is spotted before being able to get a shot at the sentry. A fire fight results. Innocent bystanders are injured or killed.

Just imagine the outcry that would result from the general public, regardless of who shot who, about allowing armed troops running all over the place.

You know it's going to be the case. Only those of us who serve and have served would understand how wrong the public perception would be, but unfortunately the brush is wide and well primed with paint.

 

[Tibbson]

And when it comes to decisions like this concerns about the publics perception will always win out

 

[Jarnhamar]

Just to throw a wrench into the gears, lets look at an alternate scenario.

For arguments sake, lets agree that we've gone through all of the debate, knicker twisting and teeth gnashing and finally agree to arm the sentries, or more realistically an armed member(s) on site to provide protection to the sentries.

Picture what would happen if a similar incident takes place, only this time the perpetrator is spotted before being able to get a shot at the sentry. A fire fight results. Innocent bystanders are injured or killed.

Just imagine the outcry that would result from the general public, regardless of who shot who, about allowing armed troops running all over the place.

You know it's going to be the case. Only those of us who serve and have served would understand how wrong the public perception would be, but unfortunately the brush is wide and well primed with paint.

Or picture what will happen if an attacker shoots the police officer guarding the soldiers then shoots and kills soldiers and other bystanders.  People will scream why weren't the soldiers armed.

We arm security guards to defend themselves because they are big targets, or carrying big targets.
Soldiers in the public are now big targets.  We can
1. Not arm soldier with the ability to defend themselves.
2. Arm soldiers so they can defend themselves.
3. Stop public events
4  Pay an already over worked police force a lot of money to follow soldiers around and guard them.

 

[tomahawk6]

The sentinel is guarding a symbol of the sacrifice of men and women who have fallen for their country.Do what must be done to honor their memory.To fall while on Guard for me would be an honor.The sentry that was killed while on guard deserves Canda's highest honor as both a symbol and a lesson for others.

 

[cupper]

Or picture what will happen if an attacker shoots the police officer guarding the soldiers then shoots and kills soldiers and other bystanders.  People will scream why weren't the soldiers armed.

Which is where we are now. So we are in essentially a Catch-22 situation. Damned if we do, Damned if we don't.

 

[Tibbson]

Which is where we are now. So we are in essentially a Catch-22 situation. Damned if we do, Damned if we don't.

Actually, I think we're damned if we do and wise to do not and let the appropriate civilian agency handle it. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest:  it's the cops who'll be guarding the guardians, so to speak ....

The Canadian Armed Forces and Ottawa police have a signed a contract that will see two uniformed city police officers protect the ceremonial guards at the National War Memorial for the next seven months.

The military is paying for the entire cost of the paid duty contract, which is pegged at approximately $425,000.

(....)

“We remain undeterred in paying tribute to this nation’s fallen and continue, resolutely, to show dignity and respect for this important national site,” wrote National Defence spokeswoman, Ashley Lemire in an email to Metro.

While the War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier will remain accessible to the public, crowd control stanchions will restrict access to the two sentries guarding the tomb.

“We are confident in the Ottawa Police Service’s ability to protect our personnel and we thank all Canadians for their ongoing support as we continue to pay tribute to the sacrifices made by our nation’s heroes,” wrote Lemire.

National Defence requested Ottawa police to help guard the site since DND does not have jurisdiction over the site ....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If we have to arm the guards to protect themselves or pay the exorbitant ransom to the OPD, then it's time to take the guards off task. All this stuff and what ifs are pie in the sky conjecture. No one, no matter what, is going to stop a determined attacker from taking out a guard.

We couldn't do it in Afghanistan where EVERYONE was armed and hyper vigilant, and we won't stop it here. All the rest is fluff and fantasy.

Leave them there and accept the risk they may get killed or dismount the guards from their posts.

There, realistically, in no other options while attempting to keep the guards and public safe.

 

[McG]

[armed security guards] wear body armour, have the freedom to maintain 360 degree awareness while working and have mobile armoured cover available.

My belief is that, if anyone was to be armed at the NWM,it should be the "guardian angel" who is there to look after the sentries.

I have been a GA, and I have performed work where I have been assigned a GA.  In all cases, the guy doing the mission was armed - he was focused on a job and unable to watch for threats, but he was ready to reinforce the GA the moment shots started.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I just read that the off duty police doing this security duty will be making about $130 an hour.  Not too shabby lol

 

[George Wallace]

I just read that the off duty police doing this security duty will be making about $130 an hour.  Not too shabby lol

The news I heard this morning is that there will be two officers, with a cruiser, on duty, starting fifteen minutes prior to through to fifteen minutes following the mounted Guard.  They are to conduct security sweeps prior to and after the Guard performs their duties.  This does not sound like "off duty" officers.  DND has announced the sum that they will pay the Ottawa Police for this service at around $425K.

http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1334857/ottawa-police-ink-425k-deal-to-protect-ceremonial-guards-at-war-memorial/ 

 

[mariomike]

I just read that the off duty police doing this security duty will be making about $130 an hour.

These are their advertised rates.

Rates*
Constable $79.78/hr

Sergeant $90.46/hr

Staff Sergeant $98.93/hr

Vehicles $45.00/hr

Canine $50 flat rate in addition to the cost of the officer and vehicle

*last updated January 2015.
http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/contact-us/hire-police-for-an-event.asp

 

[George Wallace]

Whatever the members of the Ottawa Police who are tasked to perform these duties, whether their are off duty or not, are paid; the budget is there, as is the time frame for which they will give protection.  It will be up to the Ottawa Police to budget their money paid them by DND to meet the demand. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Whatever the members of the Ottawa Police who are tasked to perform these duties, whether their are off duty or not, are paid; the budget is there, as is the time frame for which they will give protection.  It will be up to the Ottawa Police to budget their money paid them by DND to meet the demand.

I just found it an interesting cost difference.

A new private in the reserves working as a Cenotaph guard would make $11.28 an hour


$79 seems a lot less that $130. I guess that number was frm deviding $450'000 into man hours or whatever.

 

[Haggis]

If we have to arm the guards to protect themselves or pay the exorbitant ransom to the OPD, then it's time to take the guards off task.

There are far better uses for $425,000.  Like, maybe, fixing the recruiting system?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

'xactly.

Besides, two local PCs sitting in a car or wandering around the area, will not stop a determined attacker from getting to the CG. They would need two per guard, standing on either side, one facing forward and one facing rear, covering interlocking arcs. Even then there are no guarantees.

 

[Kat Stevens]

There are far better uses for $425,000.  Like, maybe, fixing the recruiting system?

There's your pips n crowns paid for.