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pro patria
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I will throw this one out their for everyone to read, how many tours does a soldier have to do before he can stop. i have done six and i know if i stopped going it would not be good
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Good question. Unfortunately (for you) there is no "limit" on operational tours. It is part and parcel of the job that we do. If you are tired of going on tour (and my hat is definitely off to you for 6), then your only option is to pull the pin and get out. That, or work some sort of internal unit deal where you get left behind on Rear Party for a tour so that you can "catch your breath" so to speak. I would suspect that the latter would require a "non-deployable" categorization by the social workers or padre involved in pre-deployment training. And make no mistake, such a move is likely to have career progression implications for you.
Bottom line? There is no easy answer to your conundrum. But I certainly empathize with your situation, particularly if you have children who must deal with "Daddy" being away for half of their lives. If that is the case, then my advice (with all due respect) is to get out of the Army and pursue a stable civilian career. That is precisely what I am intending to do, so I speak from somewhat the same perspective. Granted however, I have only 3 tours and 6 moves in 18 years....
Really, the choice is yours. The Army has operational requirements which exceed a healthy state for the manpower pool. This means that most of us will end up doing repeated tours. Some high-demand trades (eg. combat engineers and certain tech trades) are far worse off than others. But at the end of the day, it is you who have to decide whether or not continued military service and its associated demands are consistent with what you want out of life. The pay is good and the benefits are second to none. But none of that means a pinch of coon-shite if you or your family is dissatisfied. You can't put a price on contentment.....
You need to sit down and examine the various pro's and con's in an objective fashion then make a decision. It isn't easy leaving the Army, particularly if you have been at it for the majority of your adult life. Heck, I've had this haircut since I was 13 years old. But at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing to you. For me, it is my family and a genuine desire to try being a taxpaying civvie for a change during the latter half (hopefully) of my life. For you, the baseline motivation may be entirely different. You need to decide for yourself what you want, and where you want to go with your life.
Just my personal thoughts....
Bottom line? There is no easy answer to your conundrum. But I certainly empathize with your situation, particularly if you have children who must deal with "Daddy" being away for half of their lives. If that is the case, then my advice (with all due respect) is to get out of the Army and pursue a stable civilian career. That is precisely what I am intending to do, so I speak from somewhat the same perspective. Granted however, I have only 3 tours and 6 moves in 18 years....
Really, the choice is yours. The Army has operational requirements which exceed a healthy state for the manpower pool. This means that most of us will end up doing repeated tours. Some high-demand trades (eg. combat engineers and certain tech trades) are far worse off than others. But at the end of the day, it is you who have to decide whether or not continued military service and its associated demands are consistent with what you want out of life. The pay is good and the benefits are second to none. But none of that means a pinch of coon-shite if you or your family is dissatisfied. You can't put a price on contentment.....
You need to sit down and examine the various pro's and con's in an objective fashion then make a decision. It isn't easy leaving the Army, particularly if you have been at it for the majority of your adult life. Heck, I've had this haircut since I was 13 years old. But at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing to you. For me, it is my family and a genuine desire to try being a taxpaying civvie for a change during the latter half (hopefully) of my life. For you, the baseline motivation may be entirely different. You need to decide for yourself what you want, and where you want to go with your life.
Just my personal thoughts....
P
pro patria
Guest
Thanks for your info
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I echo Mark C here, although I am sorry to think that people of his calibre will leave us. I have now served just under 31 years as a Res and Reg . In that time I have done four tours (not too bad in 23 years of RegF service) and even that has taken its toll in ways that are not always immediately evident, because they happened when my kids were young which is a vulnerable time. I love the Army, and I am proud to be a Canadian soldier, but I too have my days when I wonder what it would be like to just go and do something else that was a bit more stable and not have to worry about getting posted again. In the end, we must choose which is more important: family or Army. There is no shame in choosing: the shame comes in short-changing and maybe even harming one for the other by avoiding the choice. The choice is not an easy one. Cheers.
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This is obviously a touchy subject, so here's my suggestion to help. There are a lot of Reservists whom are ready and willing to go on tour. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases they get left off tours, because they have no prior tour experience. This is understandable for Roto(s) 0. However as situations stabilise, sending Reserve sub units on Roto would aid. I know this has been tried with LVP Coys (which in my opinion looked strangely like a Armd (Mud)Recce Sqn manned by Infanteers, but I digress) with mixed results. Maybe getting them into theatre sooner would help. I and others in my boat feel bad seeing my Reg force counterparts doing countless tours and us being held back do to lack of operational experience.
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MarkC and pbi are bang on and I have had similar thoughts (although when the call goes out, for some reason I'm still first in line! LOL)...
Love793:
I see your point, but unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. The administrative and training requirements to prepare a Reserve sub-unit for service overseas are so onerous that they preclude using formed sub-units for anything but the most predictable of missions - we just managed it for the last couple of Bosnia rotations. I was involved with those and it was a huge burden on the mounting Area and formations for rather limited (IMHO) gain.
For Athena, the skill sets (recce/surveillance, mech infantry, cbt engineer) required virtually rule out use of Reserve Force personnel in large numbers. In LFWA, we said pointblank that (with a few - case by case - exceptions, Reservists had to have a previous tour before being employed on the mission - for good reason.
Love793:
I see your point, but unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. The administrative and training requirements to prepare a Reserve sub-unit for service overseas are so onerous that they preclude using formed sub-units for anything but the most predictable of missions - we just managed it for the last couple of Bosnia rotations. I was involved with those and it was a huge burden on the mounting Area and formations for rather limited (IMHO) gain.
For Athena, the skill sets (recce/surveillance, mech infantry, cbt engineer) required virtually rule out use of Reserve Force personnel in large numbers. In LFWA, we said pointblank that (with a few - case by case - exceptions, Reservists had to have a previous tour before being employed on the mission - for good reason.
Jungle
Army.ca Veteran
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Pro Patria, have you considered a posting to a trg establishment ? I don't know what rank you are, but you can likely get a 4-5 year posting to a school and get some stability. There is a lot of work involved, but it might give you time to re-evaluate your future intentions without having to deploy.
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I grudgingly have to agree, because the Res F isn't currently structured properly to force-generate formed sub-units. The friction in the indiv trg system propagates through the system, making it extremely difficult to generate sub-units even for relatively brief exercises, much less prolonged ops. Moreover, the structure itself is flawed. There are too many units, causing a diffusion of effort and a disunity of thought. A sub-unit is much more than (roughly) one hundred people...it's an embedded and functioning command and control infrastructure, sustainment elements and, perhaps even more importantly, a cohesive body of soldiers confident in one another's abilities and their leadership. As long as we keep the Res F frozen in its current, fractured, archaic, early 20th century mass-mobilization structure, it's never going to efficiently force-generate much more than indiv augmentees and occasional sub-sub-unit sized elements.
Having said all that, I disagree that the CRIC experiences were without much pay-off. Perhaps, in a short-term sense, the effort involved didn't quite justify the saving in Reg F manpower (I don't know; I bow to your more direct experience here). However, the longer-term result was a far better understanding on the part of both the Reg and Res F as to what is required to mount a Res F sub-unit, and where the limitations are. We also now have a reasonably large group of Reservsists with experience in mounting and employing up to a sub-unit, in a unit-level context.
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Fellas
Be thankful, it's not like the old times. 12 month tours and no LTA or n WW1 and 2 2-4 yrs gone. My father was gone a yr. They were thinking of 9 months at one time. My Bosnia tour in 94 was 7 months, it's bad give advance party then getting stuck on the last flight. then off to IFOR.
Be thankful, it's not like the old times. 12 month tours and no LTA or n WW1 and 2 2-4 yrs gone. My father was gone a yr. They were thinking of 9 months at one time. My Bosnia tour in 94 was 7 months, it's bad give advance party then getting stuck on the last flight. then off to IFOR.
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dglad:
You're probably right in that the CRIC experiences at least gave some of the leadership a chance to participate in more than an augmentee role. However, I'm not sure the effort was worth it in the end. For the first rotation (PALLADIUM 11), we ended up doing a great deal of the company's predeployment administration (although, admittedly, not all of it), including drafting the coy's training plan. For the second, the coy had to be sourced from across Canada, with all the associated administrative and training hassles (thankfully, I was deployed for this one - LOL).
With enough lead time and a predictable mission, large numbers of Reservists can be deployed. Without predictability, though, we'd be asking Reservists to commit to taking time off work/school for something that cannot be guaranteed. For most of the recent missions (including the eight or so I have direct experience with), the TO&E has been a work in progress and nothing is guaranteed. If you have someone saying "I need to know xx months in advance that I'm going for sure" that person's employability is limited to those (very few) missions with TO&Es that we know well in advance and that are guaranteed not to change over the year or so it takes to force generate, mount, deploy and redeploy.
All this to say that you're exactly right in your analysis of Reserve force structure and training. The system just isn't set up to relieve the Regular Force of the burden of overseas missions to any great degree. Without major structural change (including to such perennial problems as the pay system), I fear that we're going to be limited to individual augmentation - and carefully selected individuals for most missions at that.
You're probably right in that the CRIC experiences at least gave some of the leadership a chance to participate in more than an augmentee role. However, I'm not sure the effort was worth it in the end. For the first rotation (PALLADIUM 11), we ended up doing a great deal of the company's predeployment administration (although, admittedly, not all of it), including drafting the coy's training plan. For the second, the coy had to be sourced from across Canada, with all the associated administrative and training hassles (thankfully, I was deployed for this one - LOL).
With enough lead time and a predictable mission, large numbers of Reservists can be deployed. Without predictability, though, we'd be asking Reservists to commit to taking time off work/school for something that cannot be guaranteed. For most of the recent missions (including the eight or so I have direct experience with), the TO&E has been a work in progress and nothing is guaranteed. If you have someone saying "I need to know xx months in advance that I'm going for sure" that person's employability is limited to those (very few) missions with TO&Es that we know well in advance and that are guaranteed not to change over the year or so it takes to force generate, mount, deploy and redeploy.
All this to say that you're exactly right in your analysis of Reserve force structure and training. The system just isn't set up to relieve the Regular Force of the burden of overseas missions to any great degree. Without major structural change (including to such perennial problems as the pay system), I fear that we're going to be limited to individual augmentation - and carefully selected individuals for most missions at that.
My hat off to all of you people that have completed multiple (or any, for that matter!) tours.
On a side note to this thread, what is the likelihood of being sent on tour during your initial 3 year contract? Obviously I am talking combat trades here.
cheers,
Morgs
On a side note to this thread, what is the likelihood of being sent on tour during your initial 3 year contract? Obviously I am talking combat trades here.
cheers,
Morgs
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Morgs said:
The answer to your question is: "it depends". It depends on how many missions are on the go (we are at a very low spot right now), how the forces on those missions are composed, what else you or your unit are doing at the time the mission comes up, etc. From now until late summer of 05, it will stay about the same unless the Govt gets us into something new. Then, in Aug/Sep 05 we should open the new PRT in Kandahar (about a large company in size-- a mixture of MOCs). Then, in early 06, if things stay they way they look now (IF..), we will likely deploy a considerably larger force to Afghanistan, which shouldl offer more Cbt A spots to whatever Area sources it. If we were then to move our main camp from Kabul to Kandahar, there would be an additional short term requirement for more troops (sometimes known as a "surge" or "TAV" (technical assistance visit) to provide extra protection while the relocation and teardown/buildup is completed.
Cheers
Cheers
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Morgs said:
Also depends on the Cbt arms trade you chose:
Cbt Eng - pack your bags your going twice,
Armour - RCD/12 RBC, 1 for sure, possibly 2, Strathconas, maybe 1,
Infantry - dependant on your battalion maybe 1,
Artillery - good luck, maybe 1 in 6yrs if you're good and lucky.
And although its not a cbt arm, for Med Techs, until you are done your QL 5 (after 4 yrs) its rare to go overseas, but once you are Cpl QL 5 there are all sorts of positions on every tour (like me 3 tours in 5 yrs).
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It has everything to do with rotations. There's supposed to be a year gap between deployments for both units and individuals, which drives which units are available for operations. Having said that, there is a certain amount of speculation going on here. What we know for sure (along with some guesses):
RCD: Athena Roto 3 (inbound now)
12 RBC: Athena Roto 4
Strathconas: perhaps PRT/KAF deployment if a Recce Sqn is reconsituted in time. If not, perhaps RCD. (speculation)
3 PPCLI: PRT/KAF deployment (informed speculation)
I should note that the above doesn't include sub-unit deployments (Athena has both an infantry coy and an engineer sqn) - which impact upon battalion/regiment's ability to force generate.
I have not seen the new Army managed readiness plan, so can't/won't comment further on unit deployments. Generally speaking, there are always engineers and signallers, so they'll be going on anything coming up. Also in the breach are 2 PPCLI (which was slated for NRF 06 - but I am likely out of date here), 1 RCR, (later) 2 RCR and at least one Vandoo battalion. We're coming off the so-called "operational pause" soon, so anything is fair game. All of these may have both a Recce Sqn and an Engr Sqn attached.
Want to go overseas fast? Become an ammo tech (no kidding!) or a signaller (strat com).
RCD: Athena Roto 3 (inbound now)
12 RBC: Athena Roto 4
Strathconas: perhaps PRT/KAF deployment if a Recce Sqn is reconsituted in time. If not, perhaps RCD. (speculation)
3 PPCLI: PRT/KAF deployment (informed speculation)
I should note that the above doesn't include sub-unit deployments (Athena has both an infantry coy and an engineer sqn) - which impact upon battalion/regiment's ability to force generate.
I have not seen the new Army managed readiness plan, so can't/won't comment further on unit deployments. Generally speaking, there are always engineers and signallers, so they'll be going on anything coming up. Also in the breach are 2 PPCLI (which was slated for NRF 06 - but I am likely out of date here), 1 RCR, (later) 2 RCR and at least one Vandoo battalion. We're coming off the so-called "operational pause" soon, so anything is fair game. All of these may have both a Recce Sqn and an Engr Sqn attached.
Want to go overseas fast? Become an ammo tech (no kidding!) or a signaller (strat com).
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Why would you stop???? I am on my ILQ course right now and there are 120 of us on it. Now mind you this is a tri service course but there are people on it with over 20 years in who just have their CD!!!!!!!!!! One of our instructors has 32 yrs in and has no tours!!!!!!!
I have 6 tours myself and let me tell you, they can't come soon enough!!!!!!!!! Reason being, as a Combat Engineer, it is the only time we get to do our jobs for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You go over there, do your jobs for 6 months, and do it well, then you come back to Canada and go on Exercise doing things for fake. I hate it but realize it is a necessary evil....all training is a rehearsal right???
I myself couldn't imagine myself turning down a tour.................you just have to remember the same guy who always manages to get out of a tour or worse yet........the guy who never finishes a course, never finishes an exercise or never finishes a tour..........we promote them in the Engineers by the way.
My 2 cents,
CHIMO!!!!!!!
I have 6 tours myself and let me tell you, they can't come soon enough!!!!!!!!! Reason being, as a Combat Engineer, it is the only time we get to do our jobs for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You go over there, do your jobs for 6 months, and do it well, then you come back to Canada and go on Exercise doing things for fake. I hate it but realize it is a necessary evil....all training is a rehearsal right???
I myself couldn't imagine myself turning down a tour.................you just have to remember the same guy who always manages to get out of a tour or worse yet........the guy who never finishes a course, never finishes an exercise or never finishes a tour..........we promote them in the Engineers by the way.
My 2 cents,
CHIMO!!!!!!!
CHIMO!!!!! said:
...That was one of the reasons I was asking. Obviously I havent experienced it first hand, but I want to go on as many tours as possible. I'm sure I sound just like you guys did when you first joined (or maybe i dont, who knows?), but thats part of the whole excitement for me.
I can understand though why some people are a bit reluctant, especially after you've got a wife or husband and a few little ankle biters
GGHG_Cadet
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Just wondering, how many tours have the Ammo Techs on this board been on?
J
jmackenzie_15
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What dictates (infantry battallions specifically) who gets sent overseas in what order? Does command just decide which units to send based on readiness, or manpower, or if theyve just come home from a tour or what ? Ive been somewhat curious about that lately.
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