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Trained killers?

"Soldiers are not trained killers, they are trained to get the job done, no matter what the costs."

Ok, and what is that job that you are vaguely eluding to? Is the primary function of a soldier to make sure that his boots are shiney, at any cost? To ensure that there is not a loss of life in any situation, at any cost?

Or is his primary (number one, main, fundemental, rudimentary, numero uno, first,) function as a soldier, to be trained, capable, and ready to close with and destroy the enemy?

A soldier who is engaged in peacekeeping, is still a soldier first. If for example, rebel forces in any given theater of operation were to attack a Canadian military instalation, would the commanding officers be inclined to continue to commit thier forces elsewhere in accordance with the peacekeeping mission. No, everyone would be busy killing rebels, and they wouldn‘t stop until they defeated them. Combat comes first, you don‘t ignore it, you don‘t learn how to fulfill peacekeeping agendas before you learn how to shoot a rifle. If you haven‘t learned how to kill, you wouldnt make much of a peacekeeper, otherwise peacekeeping would be about sending hippies and preachers into conflict zones to try and solve differences through prayer and "sharing circles".

If people wouldn‘t be so defensive they would realise that those in this forum who are indicating that indeed soldiers must by definition be trained killers, are NOT insinuating that our troops are nothing more than "assasins"

If you would have bother to have read my whole post you may have seen: "I think everyone in this forum understands that our soldiers are much more than simply being trained killers."

Or, "People who take it a step further and express the viewpoint that soldier ARE cold blooded killers, or murderers, or women and children killers, obviously have no concept of what our military does in this world".

No one (at least not me) is saying that all a soldier does is kill. However he has been trained to kill. The police have been trained to kill. Slaughter house workers have been trained to kill animals. It‘s part of the job, the same as a forestfire fighter starting a controled burn to combat a fire.
You wouldnt call him an arsonist, he‘s been specially trained to start fires when the situation calls for it. You could call him a trained fire starter, and you could say it with a sinister tone of voice to insinuate that hes no better than a criminal for doing it, but thats stupid, just the same as someone using that same tone of voice when speaking about our soldiers being "trained killers".

So here it is, in the broad array of tasks that a soldier must be trained and prepared to perform, falls the task of killing enemies. Therefore he has to be trained to kill. When his killing training is completed he becomes a "trained killer". He also is likely to be a trained boot polisher, a trained bed maker, a trained uniform wearer. Do you see?
Nothing sinister about it. It‘s a job. Killing just happens to be a major component of the fundamental job description of a soldier.
 
Originally posted by RoyalHighlandFusilier:
[qb] Being a professional soldier means part of your job is train to be a killer and if necessary, kill. [/qb]
There we go, the operative words, "if nessascary".

Yes, potentially having to kill somone is a function of the job, and yes, we‘re trained to do it, but it‘s not the only thing we do, far from it.

"Trained Killers" implies it‘s the only thing we do.
 
There are two ways to take it. Trained killers as assasins, and trained killers as trained to kill for a good reason.

If you take it as number 2, then yes, we are trained to kill. But it is for a good reason. And being a soldier is far from just being a killer. You can‘t simbalize a soldier as a killer.

If you take it as number one, then no we are not cold blooded killers that assasinate people for no good reason.

When we kill someone, it‘s for a good reason. And the good reason is that the person that you are about to kill is about to kill you or someone else.
 
"Trained Killers" implies it‘s the only thing we do.

If you‘ve read my posts you would see that I‘ve gone through pains to demonstrate that the term "trained killers" doesn‘t necessarily have to imply that all a soldier does is train to kill, until such time as they go utilise that training.

When someone who is anti military says it, then that is probably exactly what they are implying.

However, when a close family member or friend says it, they may mean that they want them to realise that the world is going to judge them differently because they have been trained how to kill.
There is a lot of potential repercussions for taking formal training in the methods of applying lethal force that I think a lot of young people don‘t think about. At least their parents assume that they haven‘t thought about it.
Such as, what happens if you hurt someone in a street fight? Serious problems, thats what.

A lot of people fear military and police because of the fact that they are knowledgeable in methods of combat, even barring the use of lethal force.

For a lot of Canadians there is a certain level of ignorance in regards to the military, the only stuff they really hear about is the bad stuff you see in the news from time to time. Many more assimilate what they see the Americans doing on CNN and in Vietnam movies and assume that this is what Canadian troops do also. Then those same induviduals will turn around and judge our troops according to those beliefs. There‘s not really anything you can do to stop people like that from beliving that you are nothing more than a government trained assasin, and thats something that you have to be prepared to deal with. You may hang with a certain clique of friends who go of to college while you go off to basic, only to find when you go home on a holiday that they look down on you and aren‘t your friends anymore.

And for this quote: "There are two ways to take it. Trained killers as assasins, and trained killers as trained to kill for a good reason."

The point I‘m making in that the basic implication of the phrase "trained killer" is that an induvidual has been taught how to kill. There‘s not two ways to look at it. There‘s one.

There‘s only two ways to look at it if you are trying to take offence to it (a popular pastime in forums). A person who has been trained how to kill, is a trained killer.

So a soldier is a trained killer, the same way a ski patroller is a trained first aider. They have been taught how to perform first aid, therefore "trained first aider".

You would still call them by their title of ski patroller. The same way you call a soldier a soldier. You would not be incorrect if you said "that ski patroller is a trained first aider". You would not be incorrect if you said "that soldier is a trained killer" (maybe overly generalising, but not wholey incorrect). If he‘s not a trained killer, then he‘s not a soldier.

We all know that soldiers do more than just kill, and train to kill. Thats been mentioned already, by me. I‘m getting the impression that it doesn‘t matter that every soldier is expected to use deadly force in defense of themselves and their country, some people just aren‘t going to accept that they could correctly be refered to as someone who has been trained to kill. I won‘t ask what they thought they were training to do the last time they participated in section attack.
 
This entire thread is retarded. Of course we are trained killers, I don‘t remember getting trained to bag a deer with my service rifle.
 
Kinda off topic

but i once saw a documentary about canadians executing people.. enemy or canadian...

The point is out of 7 rifles they loaded one with a blank round, So if one of them regreted their action they could always think that their rifle had the blank round...
 
If all the pouge MOCs want to live in the fantasy land that they can be soldiers without ever having to be mean or nasty or fill some ****** with lead, well that‘s fine, but you keep that attitude far away from me. That kind of thinking engenders doubt and hesitency, neither of which are conducive to surviving battle. There‘s no point to closing with and destroying the enemy if you can‘t pull the trigger and kill them before they kill you or worse, your buddies. I‘d far rather live with having capped some commie or terrorist f&ck than live with the knowledge that I got buddy killed cause I couldn‘t man up when the shooting started.

How about this: We all just agree that "Infantrymen are trained killers". This should let the soft skills live in the fantasy that they need not kill.

PS: Save Hermann Das Germann!!!
 
Agreed, this thread is retarded. I don‘t remember training to build dams for floods or practicing shoveling snow for that next blizzard. But our budget was cut so we had to focus on something else.
 
Originally posted by Gambler:
[qb] Agreed, this thread is retarded. I don‘t remember training to build dams for floods or practicing shoveling snow for that next blizzard. But our budget was cut so we had to focus on something else. [/qb]
Not trained for but don‘t forget one of the CF mandates is aid to civil power and if thats dam building, fighting fires etc then thats what we do as well.
 
Seems to me that on every gunnery course I took we were taught to kill the enemy with either coax or main...not deliver spankings or rude letters...

Regards
 
Originally posted by Pte. Scarlino:
[qb] Thanks for enlightening us on how the army works, recruit. "If the army is sent into a similar building" we would try just as hard to get the hostages, we don‘t just kick down the door guns blazing if we know there are civilians inside. [/qb]
I never said anything about killing hostages. It‘s common sense that you try and save the hostages. I‘m talking about the hostage takers. Police are less likely to shoot them unless they show themselves as an immediate threat. The police try and bring the bad guys out alive, not in bags. I know the army would save the hostages, maybe do a better job because they don‘t worry about the terrorists being alive when the firing stops. The SAS lost one hostage out of 26 at Princess Gate, but all the HTs were killed (possibly by the order of Margret Thatcher). One of the HTs had actually been tackled to the ground by a security guard that was taken hostage but an SAS assaulter ordered the guard up and emptied a 30 round mag into the terrorist. That is the point I‘m trying to get to. A police officer would pull out handcuffs at a time like this. The army isn‘t a trigger happy organization, but it doesn‘t hesitate to shoot.
 
I see much confusion and semantics till the cows come home. If your a policeman you are compelled to keep the peace, protect yourself, and victims of crime and apprehend criminals,preferably with no loss of life! If you are a soldier your primary function (note primary) is to locate,close with and destroy (kill) the enemy. My point is this, first understand the definition of soldier, then with that understanding under your belt you still are going to be a soldier then bloody well get good at it!
 
My point about "nothing has changed" is this, get caught between politicians and generals and you will be hung out to dry as the fall guy, and the lower your rank the harder you hang! It was that way in the 60‘s and judging the Kyle Brown, air borne Bull s**t is is still going on, nothing has changed!
 
lol whatever! an infantrymans job is to close with and destroy the enemy so that implies that we are trained to kill them so get over it, and quit crying about. "being a trained killer implies that we are only trained to kill". being a trained killer just implies that we have been trained to kill but its not the only thing we do, and even if it was it wouldnt bother me because the majority of the people you kill wouldnt hesitate to kill you or any of your loved ones.
 
If you check out Lt. Col. Dave Grossman‘s book On Killing you‘ll find that throughout history soldiers have had a VERY hard time bringing themselves to kill the enemy, even when under threat of serious personal harm. It takes alot of training to overcome this natural human instinct, and when overcome it takes serious conditioning to reduce the risk of PTSD later on in life. With this in mind...

It was recently clarified to me that the role of the infantry is not to "close with and destroy the enemy". It is to "close with and defeat the enemy.

The difference between these two definitions is the amount of control and discretion involved in modern operations. Destroying the enemy requires violence. Defeating the enemy requires the careful application of violence (among other things). Not like a psychopath, but like a surgeon.

As this all applies to the thread:

Trained killers? Yes

Cold blooded killers? No
 
Originally posted by fusilier955:
[qb]What is the philosophical difference between a police force and an army?
[/qb]
To answer this and to simplify (well, for me anyway) what everyone else has said, i would say that the difference is that the army‘s purpose is to use the maximum amount of controlled force while police try to use the minimal amount of force possible to carry out their responsibilities.
 
Originally posted by fusilier955:
What is the philosophical difference between a police force and an army?
In my simple mind, a police force enforces the law by arresting criminals, whereas an army stands ready to wage war - in both cases, they serve and protect their nation and citizens.

In the case of a police force, they are armed as a deterrent, or in case they need to defend themselves against armed/violent criminals.

In the case of an army, they are armed as a deterrent, or in case they need to kill the enemy (which is the ultimate deterrent ... as per the sentiment "The best way to prevent war is to be prepared for it").

As an aside, it sure would be an eye-opener for the Canadian taxpayers (who are paying for the Federal Liberal Party‘s gun registration folly) if the truth ever came to light vis-a-vis the deterrent value of firearms ... (i.e. how many armed police officers are raped in a year, compared to unarmed, defenceless targets ... ?)

But ... I digress ... (we‘re all allowed to rant once in a while ... eh?)

I strongly agree with the earlier distinction between "trained" and "cold-blooded".

Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883
 
The simplest, though not entirely accurate, difference between an army and a police force is that an army imposes, a police force enforces...

The line becomes blurred when you have an army acting as a police force (For example, in a peace keeping situation), or a police force acting as an army (Say in a riot situation).

That‘s the way I see it anyway.
 
We are trained killers. I have been trained in the art.

We are Cold blooded. I will not do so out of anger or anything else. I do it to accomplish an objective. Thats all.

My grandfather who was in Vietnam explained to me

"Its not the fact that you kill a man that bothers you. Its not that it is pretty easy to do. Its that at the end of the day you will have enjoyed it. You went home he didnt. You triumph"

031- To close with and DESTROY the enemy.
 
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