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Training, Tech to Prevent Accidental Discharges?

paracowboy said:
explain how that could work, dude. I'm genuinely curious.

Have a similar rule to the Detention barracks apply. Reduced to Pte. for the duration of punishment, inspected by the BOS, menial tasks and show parades from 0530 to 2300. Resumption of rank during work hrs, marched to and from meals, etc.

It could be made to work, if the powers that be wanted it.

oh, and von garvin, having been a resident of the defaulters room on occasion, it is not a "weak" punishment. You are always tired, sore and rushed, with a Sgt breathing down your neck, and your daily job to do to boot. I'm the first to admit it was an effective punishment.
 
GO!!! said:
oh, and von garvin, having been a resident of the defaulters room on occasion, it is not a "weak" punishment. You are always tired, sore and rushed, with a Sgt breathing down your neck, and your daily job to do to boot. I'm the first to admit it was an effective punishment.
Been there, done that.  I'm not downplaying defaulters: it sure has its merits.  I only said "weak" (perhaps a poor choice of word there on my part), just meant that it's rather low on the scale of punishments for such a serious offense, in my opinion.  That was all.
 
Hey guys: Ya'll that mentioned the four cardinal firearms rules are right on target. The fact is, you have to load and unload. We use the Saf-T round for training where I work and it's a good visual indicator on rifles and SMG's. It doesn't work on handguns if you are going to carry the weapon in a holster. The orange tab sticks out of the ejection port, and the pistol won't fit in the holster. We use a different thing called the Ammo Safe for our pistols. it has a yellow tag that sticks out the muzzle end of the barrel.
 
Wesley "Over There" (formerly Down Under) said:
I don't think rules at gates to certain zones (when there is proper sand bagged unload bays is BS). Due to OPSEC I will not discuss the SOPs where I am at, but wherever I am, it does make sense. Even with these tight regualtions, we had a UD which cost a young soldier his life earlier this year with a 9mm Vigilante pistol (Browning HP MkIII). The BOI is still ongoing with that one (google 'Jake Kovco' for more info, but horseplay is the most likely result in this instance).

There is a time and place for a hot weapon, and behind gates in 'safe' zones, in your barracks or DFAC is not one of them. One has to take into effect cleaning (SBF and SAF), and of course the proper drills (DOWRs), which is only re-inforced with correct training and familiarisation.  After many UD's in Timor L'este in 1999/2000, Army put out a policy that all units would carry their weapons around (regardless of unit), with blank ammo. Over time the UD dropped almost to nil.

If you are on a camp in Iraq, you are not really in a 'safe' zone especially the smaller FOBs or private compounds. There are locals working all over the place. If it were safe you wouldn't need your weapon.  Police don't unload their weapons everytime they walk into a building, why should soldiers who are overseas?  Your weapon will not shoot itself while its holstered or sitting on the floor under your chair. The VAST majority of NDs happen at the clearing barrels. Want to cut NDs, cut out the unnecessary loading/unloading and increase training time on weapons, especially handguns.  Having spooked US soldiers coming up to you and telling you that your weapon is gets annoying after a while.
 
+1 to Para -- and a BIG FUCKING +1 to Big Red.


I was so fricken embarrased in KAF and BAF etc to walk around and see troops without loaded weapons (for them, -- I run hot cause I can  ;D).
  I fail to see a difference between trusting someone to run out of the gate in a hot state and them forcing them to dowload when entering base.





 
Infidel-6 said:
  I fail to see a difference between trusting someone to run out of the gate in a hot state and them forcing them to dowload when entering base.
I think the problem stems from a serious case of "Bosnia-itis".  This sure as heck isn't Bosnia or a garrison for that matter!  Teach/train and you'll have no problems.  As someone else said: police in Canada don't unload everytime they have flatulence!
 
I acknowledge I am way out of my lane here but doesn't presence of the tags and flags on the chamber device give a clue to the bad guys with regards to readiness?
 
AJFitzpatrick said:
I acknowledge I am way out of my lane here but doesn't presence of the tags and flags on the chamber device give a clue to the bad guys with regards to readiness?
worse. It develops a dependence on gadgetry. The Army has to learn that you can't compensate for lack of training with gizmos.
 
The orange or bright yellow safety indicators are mostly for training with weapons where you aren't using sims or MILES gear. To my way of thinking, there's no such thing as an "accidental discharge" or an "unintentional discharge." If a rifle fires when it's not supposed to, it's because the Soldier pulled the trigger. That's a negligent discharge. I had an experienced fire team leader in my company who had an ND in Kuwait in 2000. He cranked off a round in a tent where his squad was sleeping all around him. That happened about a week after a Marine was killed out at Udairi Range by another Marine with an "unloaded" pistol. This is why there are clearing barrels outside of mess halls, the PX and so forth.
 
Some NDs happen because people genuinley aren't trained on the weapon (happens with pistols).  The obvious solution is training.

Others happen because people are playing with the weapon.  The solution is discipline.

There is another group of NDs that happen because people are tired and in hurry.  You're the last one out of the vehicle, you have to clear your long gun and your pistol.  Its dark and you had to search for your 5.56mm round when it ejected and then fumbled to put in in your mag.  Now everybody is mounted and the crew commander is yelling for you to get moving.  You pull your pistol, don't see the magazine because its in the weapon, pull back the slide, see that the chamber is clear, release the slide.  You pause for a split second and then remember that you need a mag in the weapon to fire the action, and its OK if a round is in the mag.  You pull the trigger and the weapon functions as designed.  BLAM.

 
The mistake is to confuse a technology which aids us greatly (which is a good thing) with a technology (or gadget) that is designed to replace (not augment) training.


The DCRA, NRA and many other firearms organisations that run shooting competitions require the use of chamber clear indicators DUE TO THE UNKNOWN level of skill of the shooters AND THE PARAMOUNT importance of safety.  In the military there is a given set of lowest common demonimator of skills.  In the CF it is MLOC (heck even the name MINIMUM LEVEL OF OCCUPATIONAL COMPETANCY- admits it is a min.) -- it needs to be increased (PERIOD).  DLOC - deployment level is a sad stated increase (in theory).
 However the understand is there that it is a requirement that deploying soldiers have a greater skill than those remaining in Canada.  This is a budget driven issue since the CF is incapable of funding all soldiers to a deployable level of competance.

In a "warfighting realm" the requirment is such that soldiers and their weapon be in a readiness state higher than they a re typical trained with and on.  Add in stress and lack of sleep you get a recipie for disaster.

Thats is a fact  

The need is then to reduce all the above factors - stress and sleep however are operational factors that cannot be reduced

1) Increase training: soldiers who are more familiar with the weapons are less likely to have ND's - increased competance, and the realization it is a tool not a toy.

2) Decrease weapon status changes: any mechanical action involving human input is subject to two variable -- the him and the machine - by limiting the interaction you limit the changes for something "bad" -- what this means is - pistols stay in holsters - rifles are racked when not in use.  



 
Infidel has a great point.  Reducing the number of weapon status changes should eliminate a good number of NDs. 

That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.
 
2Bravo said:
That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.

While I hate to use the NDA -- quite clearly Negligent Performance of Duties, and NCO's should be cracking skulls on that...
 
2Bravo said:
That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.
single weapon state would go a long way to changing that attitude. If Snuffie didn't smarten up on his own, everyone around him would smarten him up in short order.
 
Okay I am straying outside my lane of knowledge here but I'll say the following.

With 6 yrs in the reserve world as an officer, I can honestly say I was not at all comfortable with the pistol. I actually got to shoot it once in the entire 6 yrs I was in and I was a regular attendee who never missed training nights or weekends. 6 years and I got to fire it once. Sad.

i could use it and go through the drills and what not but it was by no means second nature and everytime I picked it up I and all the others needed a refresher. Yes I was a CSS officer but we shared an armoury with a fine infantry regiment who we crosstrained with on a number of occassions.

 
Devlin for 99.9% of the Army the pistol is an ornament -- unless your doing CQB/HR work the pistol is not very pratical and thus gets relegated to the back of everyone mind and ignored.

 
2Bravo said:
Some NDs happen because people genuinley aren't trained on the weapon (happens with pistols).  The obvious solution is training.

Others happen because people are playing with the weapon.  The solution is discipline.

There is another group of NDs that happen because people are tired and in hurry.  You're the last one out of the vehicle, you have to clear your long gun and your pistol.  Its dark and you had to search for your 5.56mm round when it ejected and then fumbled to put in in your mag.  Now everybody is mounted and the crew commander is yelling for you to get moving.  You pull your pistol, don't see the magazine because its in the weapon, pull back the slide, see that the chamber is clear, release the slide.  You pause for a split second and then remember that you need a mag in the weapon to fire the action, and its OK if a round is in the mag.  You pull the trigger and the weapon functions as designed.  BLAM.

Good post. Prior to my deployment every person was  're-qualified' whether they liked it or not. This was backed up by an ROA (record of assessment) on all weapons from pistol through to M79.

As much as there was some whinging from a few old dogs, better to be that much more familiar with your weapons, and have the paperwork to back one up in the event of something happening. I look at it this way, if I can get a few more 40x46mm HEDP rds out of my wombat gun, and throw a few more F1 frags, its all fun anyways.

Same goes with the crew served wpns, the ole 12.7 QCB, there is nothing wrong with belting out a few liners of 4B1T, or a few 200rd mags out of the Minimi on the move out of the hatch of a LAV PC at moving targets. Overall is honing one's skills.

As for horseplay with pistols, this cost us one of our own here. I may have mentioned in a previous post, but google "Jake Kovco" and read whats coming out of the ongoing BOI.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Devlin said:
Okay I am straying outside my lane of knowledge here but I'll say the following.

With 6 yrs in the reserve world as an officer, I can honestly say I was not at all comfortable with the pistol. I actually got to shoot it once in the entire 6 yrs I was in and I was a regular attendee who never missed training nights or weekends. 6 years and I got to fire it once. Sad.

i could use it and go through the drills and what not but it was by no means second nature and everytime I picked it up I and all the others needed a refresher. Yes I was a CSS officer but we shared an armoury with a fine infantry regiment who we crosstrained with on a number of occassions.

If you don't have a decent qualification prac, say at least annually, you should not be using it. However, there is nothing wrong with T'sOET for concurrent activity, to keep one up on IAs and stoppages, and DOWRs. Practice makes perfect.

Who fault is it for not having the range time? Well blame that one on your Trg WO/trg cell. This should have been addressed in PXRs to ensure that something could be actioned for next time.

Any Unit is only as good as its training.

Pistols are for close range personal protection. I carry one, infact its on me right now. In the unload of course, as we are behind the wire. However outside the wire, its loaded.

My pistol is definalty NOT an ornamant. :akimbo:

Cheers,

Wes
 
Wes

Thanks for the reply, my lack of comfort with the pistol was due to a number of factors;

- Small unit - I had three jobs (S&T Coy Pl. Comd. - my favorite, PAFFO/PAO - hated it, UIO - same as PAFFO/PAO just more paperwork)
- Time and resources - we had very few pistols to go around and even less people that were confident with them
- Competing priorities - the paperwork and crap may not be as much fun but it needs to get done

 
Someone who wasn't taught the Big Four....

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Army makes soldiers get comfortable carrying weapons
Michael Felberbaum. 28 Aug 06
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20060826-1210-weaponsimmersion.html

PETERSBURG, Va. – In the early months of the war in Iraq, Army Spc. Paul J. Sturino was getting ready for guard duty one day when another soldier accidentally fired a bullet into his neck.
“Somehow it went off,” his mother Christine Wetzel said as she recounted the official reports documenting her 21-year-old son's death on Sept. 22, 2003.

“I just think we're sending young, young people into situations that they're not ready for,” she said from her home in Rice Lake, Wis. “They're inexperienced with weapons. ... Things happen and we pay the price.”

The Army has begun taking steps to reduce accidental discharges through a new weapons immersion program fully implemented this year throughout the Army's 16 training facilities.

Sturino, assigned to the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Ky., was one of 21 soldiers killed by accidental discharges in the combat zones of Iraq and Afghanistan since 2003, according to the Army's Combat Readiness Center. Eighty-nine others were injured.

“Losing one U.S. soldier because of a negligent discharge or not handling the weapon right is one too many,” said Col. Paul Fortune, commander of the 23rd Quartermaster Brigade at Fort Lee, near Petersburg and 25 miles south of Richmond.

Under the new program, “We put the weapon in the hands of the soldier as soon as possible to give them an opportunity to be familiar with how the weapon operates,” Fortune said.

Soldiers receive their M-16 rifles – and blank ammunition – on the third day of training and keep it with them for the next six to 12 weeks, depending on the length of training. The only time they do not have their weapons is when they enter chapels or clinics, or when the rifles are checked in for the weekend.

It's part of the “train as you fight” mentality that the Army hopes will keep soldiers safe.

Soldiers such as Pvt. Kenneth Dykeman, 21, of Portland, Ore., carry their gun to class, physical training and even have it nearby as they sleep. At night, Dykeman keeps his weapon under his mattress, with the rifle's magazine in his locker.

“Most likely we're going to Iraq, and when we get there, if you don't handle your weapon during training, you're going to forget,” Dykeman said. “It helps you get closer to your weapon, know the characteristics, know what your rifle can do, so when you're out there in the field, you know how to keep yourself safe.”

The program is significantly reducing negligent discharges, said Col. Kevin A. Shwedo, director of operations, plans and training for the Army Accessions Command. The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours. Now, he said, “if you hear a single discharge, that's a lot.”

Even in the training environment, soldiers are required to keep a round of ammunition in their chambers and clear their guns before entering any building. Metal barrels filled with sand rest slanted on sandbags outside every building for soldiers to clear their weapons.

“It's a constant practice to teach them these rules and responsibilities,” Fortune said before checking weapons at random in the cafeteria. “We want to teach them that there is no such thing as the front line.”

In recent years, the only time soldiers at Fort Lee would see their weapons was when they practiced shooting. Commanders say the change reflects the need for soldiers to be ready to engage in the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And Wetzel, who lost her son, agrees with that logic.

“I wholly endorse more contact with those weapons under safe circumstances ... to have more exposure to that weapon and more safety training,” Wetzel said, adding that both of her sons had only one week of total weapon training when they entered the Army. “It should be second nature: safety first.”

It took the Army until early 2005 to “come up with enough horsepower” to implement the program, Shwedo said. Officials ran into road blocks including finding enough weapons, ammunition and supplies, and Cold War-era regulations against putting weapons on training bases, he said.

“We have got to prepare every soldier for the possibility that they would go immediately in to fight,” Shwedo said.

The program is part of the Army's new initiative to make training more relevant and apply lessons learned from troops coming back from deployment.

“We save lives every day that we train soldiers how to properly handle their weapons,” he said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the Net:

Training and Doctrine Command: www-tradoc.army.mil/

Accessions Command: www.usaac.army.mil/

 
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