Training the core

[bdave]

Some of you probably know about Dr. Stuart McGill, at Waterloo University, a prominent figure in the biomechanics and 'health' of the spine.
Through out his career, he has advocated the evil that is flexion, in relation to the spine; the exercises known as crunch and sit up.
Instead, he has shown that the optimum way to train the core (Rectus, transverse and oblique) is through stability.
A large number of coaches, researchers and the like have moved away from flexion and have incorporated stability in their programs.
Things like plank, pilaf presses and other anti flexion/anti rotation/anti extension/whatever, exercises.

I know that one of the components of the physical test given by the Canadian Forces is 'crunches'.
I realize that a number of people train for it by doing crunches and/or sit ups.
Oh well.

Here is an interview with Dr. Stuart McGill, conducted by Marc Demers, at t-nation.com.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/mister_spine

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/mister_spine_part_2

Conference call with Coach Boyle, Nick Tumminello and Charlie Weingroff on whether flexion is bad or not. This is a direct link to the podcast, and it begins about 7 minutes in and goes on for about an hour or so. Sorry for the long link.

http://69.16.184.143:80/g9z6c6z5/cds/p/4/3/b/43b2fc016dbf9154/Episode_41-_Strength_Coach_Podcast.mp3?sid=629b50ef3e9a218e0ab825a3d69ffe50&l_sid=18153&l_eid=&l_mid=1469777&dopvhost=hw.libsyn.com&doppl=d377661b9e688d989e388d98db283526&dopsig=f3262333822e8fdf7e65a86009f242b1

Just thought some people would benefit from this information.
Good day.

 

[Chilme]

This is an interesting topic for the CF.  For those concerned CF members, PSP fitness staff are working on this very topic under the direction of Physiotherapist Eric Robataille (located LFCA TC Meaford).  Currently all PSP Fitness Intructors and Basic Fitness Training Assistance (BFTA's) have a module in their training courses that covers this topic.  It is slowly becoming more excepted.

 

[bdave]

You mean they are phasing out sit ups/crunch?

 

[blacktriangle]

Well I'm about to hit the gym to rock my holiday sideburns and scruff...and I sure won't be doing any sit ups! I find doing some squats, running/swimming and legs 6 inches from the ground/plank is good enough for my core. Plus I have had this weird popping in my hip for a few years, and it's annoying!

 

[Chilme]

I can't say they're phasing them out.  Many physical tests are designed to mimic conditions and tasks of a particular job, and although sit-ups have the potential to cause injury down the road, they are still necessary fr some jobs.  I will tell you that the PSP Research and Development section is aware of some of these issues and are re-evaluating the EXPRES and some other specialty tests.  You keep in mind that it will take some time to implement new tests because they need to be scientifically validated so they can be considered a Bona Fide Occupational Requirement (BFOR).  That is basically a legal term that suggests that an individual in a position who doesn't meet BFOR has the potential to cause serious harm or death.

 

[bdave]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

 

[George Wallace]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

Have you thought of the muscle groups one uses in crossing obstacles?  Next time you navigate the Obstacle Crse give it some thought.

 

[owa]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

I can't really either.  I mean, I definitely use my core on the obstacle course, but not in a situp/crunch sort of way.  More for balance.

 

[PMedMoe]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

I can't think of a job where I need to do a push up.    :

It's all part of training the whole body.

 

[bdave]

Have you thought of the muscle groups one uses in crossing obstacles?  Next time you navigate the Obstacle Crse give it some thought.

We are talking about validating the crunch/sit up.
So from a suppinated position, bring the torso up to vertical.
Keeping your body/torso braced and stable, while crossing an obstacle, would be something that could be achieved through stabilization brought on by the core muscles.
A plank would do nicely in training the abdominals in doing just that. A crunch/sit up, not so much.

PMedMoe, that was a terrible strawman.

 

[MJP]

  You keep in mind that it will take some time to implement new tests because they need to be scientifically validated so they can be considered a Bona Fide Occupational Requirement (BFOR).  That is basically a legal term that suggests that an individual in a position who doesn't meet BFOR has the potential to cause serious harm or death.

BFOR is much more than just a potential to cause serious harm/death.  BFOR in the simplest form means that it is a rule that establishes a requirement that is necessary for proper or efficient performance of a job.  Not all BFORs involve the potential for injury although they are the most common in rigorous physical jobs.  However, if a rule is a legitimate qualification for doing a job - a BFOR - then it will be upheld. For a rule to qualify as a BFOR, it must be:

    * made honestly, in good faith, and in the sincere belief that it is made in the interests of effectiveness, safety, and productivity
    * objectively reasonable. In other words, it must have a sensible connection to the ability of an employee to do the job.

There is a lot more to BFORs and they have to reliable and valid for the job.  Someone somewhere sat down, did the testing and found empirical evidence that the x number of sit-ups was sufficient for the criteria laid out by the CF.  I agree with others that a feet held sit-up is a horrible test of someones core strength and doesn't have a whole lot of functional cross over to the real world, but it is what we have till a newer test is developed.

 

[owa]

I can't think of a job where I need to do a push up.    :

It's all part of training the whole body.

Well to be fair the act of pushing ones body up seems pretty valuable when on the obstacle course and the muscle endurance built through that comes in handy.

Planks and similar exercises, as bdave suggested, have a much more functional use in day-to-day life.

With that said, I'm not really concerned about whether or not we do situps or not.  On Basic we mostly do planks and russian twists to build core strength.  Those slay me pretty well, and in turn my situp max has gone up quite a bit -- so that'll see improvements on the CF Express.  I still don't see the crunch or situp as being super important to build overall body strength; personally I see more useful exercises.

As a bit of an aside, the plank has also helped me with my pushups quite a bit.

 

[armychick2009]

I can't think of a job where I need to do a push up.    :

It's all part of training the whole body.

AMEN!!!  I recently saw a woman with 25 years of nursing experience have to leave basic because she couldn't do push-ups. She could however, lift a 350 pound man off the floor who has fallen out of a bed....

 

[MikeL]

AMEN!!!  I recently saw a woman with 25 years of nursing experience have to leave basic because she couldn't do push-ups. She could however, lift a 350 pound man off the floor who has fallen out of a bed....

She could lift a 350 pound man up off the floor? All on her own? Are you sure about that? 350 pounds is a lot of weight to be picking up for anyone(Man or Woman)

 

[MJP]

AMEN!!!  I recently saw a woman with 25 years of nursing experience have to leave basic because she couldn't do push-ups. She could however, lift a 350 pound man off the floor who has fallen out of a bed....

So she could basically deadlift 350# but not do 9 push-ups?  That is either some serious muscle imbalance, or a load of crap.  Assisting someone back in bed yes, physically lifting someone that heavy off the floor not a chance.  Anyone who has done any sort of casualty carry would know it is extremely hard to pick up someone from the ground, especially if they are unable to assist in any way. I can empathize with someone not reaching their goals (ie: finishing basic), but the fact they couldn't meet the bare minimun standard won't garner too much sympathy from allot of folks. 

The push up is a good indicator of both core strength (the subject at hand) and overall upper body strength.  The ability to hold the body in a rigid plane (plank) while conducting push-ups indicates core strength  The sit-up especially when your feet are held is not, as it changes the focus from abs/core to the hip flexors. 

 

[bdave]

The average male needs months of training to be able to deadlift 350 pounds. That is using a barbell with weights; an ideal scenario which makes lifting weights 'easy'.
I can't imagine how difficult it is to lift an asymetrical 350 pound man, let alone having a woman do it, several feet, onto a bed.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Please enlighten me; I can't think of any job where a soldier needs to ever do a sit up or crunch.

Try pulling 7+Gs.  You need to tighten those abs.  Hard.

 

[armychick2009]

She had no problem lifting a 250 pound person in front of my very own eyes... by herself and with ease.  I'll take her word she can do a 350 pound dude!

She had no problem doing reverse push-ups on a pull-up bar... but, could not to save her life, do a push-up.

 

[bdave]

Try pulling 7+Gs.  You need to tighten those abs.  Hard.

The pilot is strapped into his chair, so he can't bend forward. So, again, this is like the plank, and not an actual sit up/crunch.

 

[Nostix]

She had no problem lifting a 250 pound person in front of my very own eyes... by herself and with ease.  I'll take her word she can do a 350 pound dude!

She had no problem doing reverse push-ups on a pull-up bar... but, could not to save her life, do a push-up.

Then I guess this really speaks to the need for everyone to train for overall fitness, and not just one or two moves that they commonly have to do on a regular basis.

It's the same reason I'd never train to get better at pushups by doing pushups. If you're not training all four of your horizontal push + pull and your vertical push + pull, you're eventually going to find yourself in a situation where one or more of them is causing you to fail at a task.