Trident: No More Beards @ Sea

[PMedMoe]

Sometimes facial hair prevents a good seal. Sometimes face shape prevents a good seal. Is the CF now going to land personnel that can't get a good seal with a one-size-fits-all mask? After all, safety is paramount.

As far as I know, there is no "one size fits all" mask.  There are many different brands (North, 3M, etc) and various sizes.  Unless someone had a huge facial deformity, I can't see them having a problem.  If all else fails, they could have a mask custom made.  If they can make a gas mask to fit with a turban (this is not intended to be racist) then they can make one to fit someone with an "odd-shaped" face/head.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

As far as I know, there is no "one size fits all" mask.  There are many different brands (North, 3M, etc) and various sizes.  Unless someone had a huge facial deformity, I can't see them having a problem.  If all else fails, they could have a mask custom made.  If they can make a gas mask to fit with a turban (this is not intended to be racist) then they can make one to fit someone with an "odd-shaped" face/head.

You don't get to pick your own mask, you get whatever is on the gear you pick up. That usually means a "medium" size of whichever type was supplied with the equipment. If you need a "small" or a "large"....sucks to be you. If that particular type of mask doesn't fit....sucks to be you.

 

[PMedMoe]

You don't get to pick your own mask, you get whatever is on the gear you pick up. That usually means a "medium" size of whichever type was supplied with the equipment. If you need a "small" or a "large"....sucks to be you. If that particular type of mask doesn't fit....sucks to be you.

If that's the case, then there is really no bloody point to the fit-testing.  Personnel should have their own masks as everyone is going to be different.  Perhaps with this new "no beard" policy, things may change.  Otherwise, it might be prudent to let someone know about this.

BTW, thanks for enlightening me.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

If that's the case, then there is really no bloody point to the fit-testing.

I've never actually seen any fit-testing for SCBA. As you said, there's no point. Everyone pretty much goes through the motions and hopes any fit problems will be cured by sweat.

Personnel should have their own masks as everyone is going to be different.

What kind of masks though? There are at least two different types on a surface ships, and four or five on a submarine. Each are built by different companies and have different types of masks.

Perhaps with this new "no beard" policy, things may change.  Otherwise, it might be prudent to let someone know about this.

Maybe, but changing all of those systems is going to cost a lot of money. I'm pretty sure this is a known problem, not a surprise to anyone thats sailed.

BTW, thanks for enlightening me.

You are quite welcome.

 

[PMedMoe]

What kind of masks though? There are at least two different types on a surface ships, and four or five on a submarine. Each are built by different companies and have different types of masks.

That's the reason for getting fit-tested.  The test will tell you the type of mask and size to use.

 

[medicineman]

I've never actually seen any fit-testing for SCBA. As you said, there's no point. Everyone pretty much goes through the motions and hopes any fit problems will be cured by sweat.

I had to get fit tested for both CHEMOX and Draeger when I did my NETP - still have the little cards - was the first day of the firefighting course.
MM

 

[Antoine]

On the civilian street (chemistry laboratory, advanced research), you are not allowed to have a gas mask in the lab if it is not specifically fitted for you, not allowed to share it and you want to be shaved if you need full protections against gas exposure (in BC).

However, I guess that firefighters can have a lot to say about gas mask, in my case, as a chemist if I need one, it is not a good sign!

:2c:

 

[STONEY]

Doesn't anyone find it strange that it took till the 100 aniversary of the Navy for the great minds at NDHQ to decide that suddenly sailors had to shave beards to get a seal on various masks. I spent many years as a firefighter, fire team leader and helo rescue firefighter plus gone through gas hut's many times testing respirators along with many of my shipmates with beards and we had no problems that i recall  except for the occasional idiot who insisted on wearing a long beard . We just thought of that as part of the natural selection process and submitted their names to the annual Darwin awards. If a person can't figure out for himself what to do to maintain a mask seal on himself he should never be given a gun and bullets.

Cheers

 

[PMedMoe]

I think the Navy's 100th anniversary is coincidental.  Someone probably inhaled something they shouldn't have during a training exercise or actual event.

Or, someone finally reported that fit tests weren't being done or weren't being done correctly.

 

[MARS]

When this issue intially surfaced years ago with the first seagoing deployments for OP APOLLO, I "thought" it was more to do with the threat of chemical warfare vice firefighting, which, as has been pointed out, the Navy has managed to risk manage for many years.  Although, we had managed to risk manage chemical warfare as well throughout the years, I guess.  But I recall, somewhat fuzzily, that was the rationale used at the time.  I "thought" the only people in the navy who had to shave were those entering the box and they were allowed to regrow them the day they left the box for home.

Something to do with the size of the chemical particles or something?

Probably bunk, and I am speculating since I don't wear a beard and have not deployed to the Gulf.

N.B. "thought" is in quotes since I cannot use italics or change font colours from my work computer to indicated that I am speculating as I normally do.

 

[Antoine]

I don't know what kind of mask the NAVY is using, but gas are nasty and if water could pass through the space between your skin and your mask, you can be sure that a high concentration of gas will. As someone pointed out earlier, people have survived through gas hut's with beards and probably have fought fire with beard+ mask. However, correct me if I am wrong but during training I hope the CF don't use the highly toxic gas that will be used against you in a chemical attack. Also, many chemicals can take weeks or months before you feel the effect, it is more effective for an enemy to not kill you on the spot but harm you bad enough requiring a dangerous rescue, a lot of health care and at the end of the day you will not be functional enough to comeback on the field. For this purpose, chemical warefares are a good tool.

Also, masks that filtrate the air have filters that are not good toward all kind of gas and chemical particles, each kind of filters having their strength and weakness, but you probably know about it.

Finally, I don't know how the military operates against chemical warfare, but gas and chemicals that burn the skin or go to your bone are easy to make. However they may not be easy to formulate in a way that it spreads effectively. Against those chemicals you need more than a mask to protect yourself.

I am absolutely not a chem warfare specialist, and you probably know more about chem warfare then me from your training, but I am working with highly toxic chemicals (powders, liquids, and gas) on a daily routine so I witness often their behaviors and risk.

Biological and chemical warefare are really nasty stuff and difficult to contain when deployed (I agree that no weapons are nice, none throws flowers at you). I hope that international convention could effectively destroy all of them, but I am a dreamer.

My  :2c:

 

[gcclarke]

I don't know what kind of mask the NAVY is using, but gas are nasty and if water could pass through the space between your skin and your mask, you can be sure that a high concentration of gas will. As someone pointed out earlier, people have survived through gas hut's with beards and probably have fought fire with beard+ mask. However, correct me if I am wrong but during training I hope the CF don't use the highly toxic gas that will be used against you in a chemical attack. Also, many chemicals can take weeks or months before you feel the effect, it is more effective for an enemy to not kill you on the spot but harm you bad enough requiring a dangerous rescue, a lot of health care and at the end of the day you will not be functional enough to comeback on the field. For this purpose, chemical warefares are a good tool.

Also, masks that filtrate the air have filters that are not good toward all kind of gas and chemical particles, each kind of filters having their strength and weakness, but you probably know about it.

Finally, I don't know how the military operates against chemical warfare, but gas and chemicals that burn the skin or go to your bone are easy to make. However they may not be easy to formulate in a way that it spreads effectively. Against those chemicals you need more than a mask to protect yourself.

I am absolutely not a chem warfare specialist, and you probably know more about chem warfare then me from your training, but I am working with highly toxic chemicals (powders, liquids, and gas) on a daily routine so I witness often their behaviors and risk.

Biological and chemical warefare are really nasty stuff and difficult to contain when deployed (I agree that no weapons are nice, none throws flowers at you). I hope that international convention could effectively destroy all of them, but I am a dreamer.

My  :2c:

This issue has little to nothing to do with the threat of chemical warfare. This order applies to all sailors aboard one of HMC Ships, not just those who are sailing into an area where there is a credible threat of chemical weapons being deployed against them. It is about fire fighting. As mentioned earlier in the thread, most people can get a seal with a short beard. Some people wear it long. Those people are silly, and as a result, and because some people can't get a seal at all with a beard, no one can sport a beard.

As for your other comments, when training the CF uses CS gas in the "gas hut". Annoying, yes. Lasting effects, likely not. And yes, we are well aware that chemical weapons can attack via the skin. When going into an environment where we suspect chemical weapons have been deployed, personnel will be dressed in MOPP 4. (Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

 

[Antoine]

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the precision, I'll go read on MOPP4.

 

[Neill McKay]

Doesn't anyone find it strange that it took till the 100 aniversary of the Navy for the great minds at NDHQ to decide that suddenly sailors had to shave beards to get a seal on various masks. I spent many years as a firefighter, fire team leader and helo rescue firefighter plus gone through gas hut's many times testing respirators along with many of my shipmates with beards and we had no problems that i recall  except for the occasional idiot who insisted on wearing a long beard . We just thought of that as part of the natural selection process and submitted their names to the annual Darwin awards. If a person can't figure out for himself what to do to maintain a mask seal on himself he should never be given a gun and bullets.

I understand that it's related to the replacement of Chemox with SCBA.  I assume the SCBA mask is different enough that matters.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

It's different, but not enough to matter. We had SCBA for ERT on the ships for years, and submarines used SCBA instead of Chemox.

 

[MARS]

I stand corrected - NBC was only a secondary consideration and not the focus of the change in '03.

http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/english/refs/pubs/matelot/repository/0312.pdf

I can't seem to find e-copies of MATELOT on the web - only a DIN link, nor can I find MARGEN 023/03.  I have copied the entire article (MATELOT, Fall/Winter 2003) below.  Shared in accordance with the usual provisions.
----------------------------------------------
Beards and the Navy –
Tradition and Safety can Work Together

LCdr Mike McCall and Monna-Leigh McElveny
CMS Safety Officers

The wearing of beards in the Navy is a long-standing tradition, dating back at least two centuries, which is still maintained in many Navies around the world. It is said to have originated in the days of wooden ships, when fresh water for washing and shaving was always in short supply. As we evolve and improve our knowledge of the world around us, some traditions are challenged for their true value and benefit.

Many sailors strongly support the tradition of wearing beards, however scientific experiments have shown that beards reduce the effectiveness of respirators worn for the person’s protection, thereby allowing them to be exposed to the very toxins that the mask is designed to protect them from. The wearing of protective personal equipment (PPE), including respiratory masks, are legal requirements of the Canada Labour Code.  Although the Canada Labour Code was written to govern civilian Federal employees, the spirit of its stated requirements have been adopted by the Chief of Defence Staff to apply to military personnel. Only extenuating circumstances allow a commander to significantly deviate from adhering to the Canada Labour Code.

Previous methods of fit testing (scented and irritant smoke) were not sufficiently reliable as they were more subjective.

Current research has shown that some individuals could pass these qualitative fit tests without a proper seal. However, under the modern fit testing(quantitative) Respiratory Protection Program (RPP), a person wearing a beard cannot obtain a proper seal while wearing a respirator.

For those reasons, the Chief of Maritime Staff (CMS) directed his risk management office to conduct a detailed review of the specific RPP hazards present in the naval environment and to recommend a strategy that would mitigate those risks. This analysis revealed that there are two main hazards that require the wearing of a respirator for the general ships company; specifically fire fighting and a possible NBC attack.

The principal need for a respirator in a ship’s fire is due to the effects of smoke inhalation and toxic fumes caused by burning fuel, paint, or other materiel. However the vast majority of fires in HMC ships are very small, and have been put out by rapid response which has typically been done with a portable extinguisher without a respirator. There is an argument that the risk of an actual fire requiring a perfectly fitting respirator is very low. This does not however negate the requirement for fire fighting training and the need to be clean shaven when doing so where there is a higher risk of exposure to burning fuel.

The second and more lethal hazard, actually classified as an “Immediate Life and Death Hazard” (ILDH), is from NBC. While sailors are protected when in the citadel state, there may be situations where they may be exposed to the NBC threat outside the citadel and inadequate protection could be lethal. In this scenario, sailors would have been mandatory quantitatively fit tested and would be cleanshaven. Where the NBC threat is low, a risk-based policy enables each operation to be analysed by CMS and be decided accordingly.

The study of fire and NBC risk led to the risk based policy recently implemented by CMS (MARGEN 023-03) with respect to the wearing of beards in the Navy. The policy states that the risk will be assessed for each operation and personnel could be directed to shave during an operation if the threat assessment rose to a level where the risk required that posture. The new policy also requires all personnel to be quantitative fit-tested once every two years for both Chemox and C4 masks, and they must be clean-shaven for these tests. Additionally, all personnel must be clean-shaven any time they are required to wear a respirator in an environment that is hazardous to health (e.g.; painters, air quality testers), including live fire fighting training. This policy will enable the wearing of beards when it is deemed to be safe to do so, while ensuring the safety of all MARCOM staff.
------------------------------------

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You don't get to pick your own mask, you get whatever is on the gear you pick up. That usually means a "medium" size of whichever type was supplied with the equipment. If you need a "small" or a "large"....sucks to be you. If that particular type of mask doesn't fit....sucks to be you.

Actually it has not worked that way for several years...there are extra small and large masks at each section base and at the start of your duty watch its your responsibility to swutch out the gear your using for equipment that fits properly.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Interesting. What about the manning pool?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Same.

 

[Stoker]

Actually it has not worked that way for several years...there are extra small and large masks at each section base and at the start of your duty watch its your responsibility to swutch out the gear your using for equipment that fits properly.

Right now there are only one size of mask for the drager in the system right now and that's medium. There are no small or large masks for people who fit test for them. If you need something different than medium that's too bad for you. A bit of a oversight don't you think.