Trouble with the Neighbours

[a_majoor]

That is a strange attitude to have, especially since the Belgians didn't cover themselves with glory in Somalia either (I have heard some hair raising stories about their treatmant of Somalian captives, but since I don't have documentation, lets just say the rumors are very disturbing).

 

[Haggis]

Lets not ignore our own fault and failures as well.

You're right, but let's look at this from another perspective:  It takes a lot of self discipline and low level leadership to live within our rules in a place like Camp Julien, Banja Luka Metal Facory or Camp Butmir, particularly when everyone around you is drinking and fornicating like the world will end tomorrow.

Anybody who's spent even one night at BLMF or Butmir has seen the other contingents get way out of hand at the Foundary or the Millenuim Club.

All things considered we aren't too bad in the "Armed Party Animal" department.  Give credit where credit is due.... to the professional NCO Corps.  it's when the Corps doesn't engage that we have alcohol and stupidity incidents occurring.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

This is quite possible, since a number of the Belgiques in Camp Julien when I was on ATHENA were Paras. I had heard a number of stories about the animosity between the two contingents, but I don't know for sure as I didn't live in Kabul. Maybe somebody who was there can comment?

Cheers.

PBI - the Belgian Coy assigned to KMNB was from the Para-Commando Regiment (forget which exact coy).

The Belgians were hated on Julien (and someone like Gunner knows even better than I as I wasn't based on Julien either) for a variety of reasons.  First was their liberal alcohol "policy", which manifested itself in a number of incidents (as KevinB alluded to).  Second was the perception, rampant within Recce Sqn and at the Brigade (amongst those who cared), that the Belgians were lazy, did not patrol with any regularity and were very passive, preferring to spend time in the gym.  This wasn't helped by the inertia of the Belgian unit at the airport.  There were a number of other "incidents" (fraternization related) that poisoned the atmosphere between the Canadians on CJ and the Belgian Para Coy.  Finally, 90% of the Belgian staff officers at HQ ISAF were out of their league, including the Chief of Staff.

Finally, to sum myself up, I can verify the stories of the drunken armed Germans.  Watching soldiers staggering around in the dark, waving their G36 (sometimes with rounds up the spout), shouting and singing after a night in the "Sunshine Bar" was very surreal...

We have our problems, but they're nothing in comparison to some other armies.

TR

 

[Haggis]

although watching the Carabinieri at the Banja Luka clearing bay was often amusing (in that "oh my God" sort of way....).

Did a joint op with the Carabinieri.  Training and competency issues aside, I found it embarressing to simply be in their presence.  They are a PR nightmare, particlualrly if there are even semi-attaractive women within eyesight or earshot.

 

[pbi]

We have our problems, but they're nothing in comparison to some other armies.

Based on what I've seen, agree 100%. It can be really shocking sometimes. However, we can't smugly sit on our laurels and measure ourselves against the incompetents: we need to keep our eye on the ball and try to get better.

Cheers

 

[JBB]

Intresting thread.  Although I am all for Euro bashing  . 

We have had a few moments of lack of professionalism on operations.  I recall while with UNPROFOR the Brit nick name for CANBAT 2 was CAN"T BAT. As well the poisoning of a SNCO with the 2 PPCLI Battle Group with UNPROFPR also springs to mind.  The lack of leadership which led to the murder of a prisoner in Somalia, which led to the demise of a fine Regiment.  Ahh... and I could go on with the Black Market actives of another Canadian UNPROFOR Bn. 

I have been retired some time now.... But.

A old CSM once told me... Worry about what your own Platoon is doing WO, and I will worry about the Coy...........

Hey just my take.

Have a good one.......

 

[Haggis]

A old CSM once told me... Worry about what your own Platoon is doing WO, and I will worry about the Coy...........

Good advice.

I'm sure shenanigans went on during my last tour.   My WO's had two options: either deal with it or conceal it.   Since I trusted my WOs implicitly, I would bet on the former.

However, hard as I tried, my influence over other contingents was limited or non-existent (as was theirs over my troops... thankfully).

However, we can't smugly sit on our laurels and measure ourselves against the incompetents: we need to keep our eye on the ball and try to get better.

Bang on, PBI.

We are superior, but only in our own eyes.   Our job is to ensure others see us the same way we do.   Firm, professional, fair and not to be trifled with. :threat:

If you compare our kit, equipment, training and combat experience to, say, the US or the Brits, we will be found wanting.   Compare our cooks, however, and we are GODS!

 

[B P]

God, you can say that again!   My opinion of a number of armies was completely changed by ISAF VI.   Realizing that the Franco-German Brigade was EUROCORPS "entry force" and (worse) that the Belgian Para-Commandos were regarded as the "elite" designed to be first inserted into an operation, their lack of ability came as a huge shock - especially after being raised on stories from old 4 CMBG guys about how great the Germans were.   Needless to say, I won't serve with a multi-national (European) unit again if I can avoid it.   HQ ISAF (and KMNB) was a brutal gong show after Hillier left and they were very lucky not to have had soldiers killed through incompetence.

The Europeans always thought the UK, US and Canada were "up to something" anyway...

TR

Have you bin there yourself , are is this what somebody told you ? Most of the things told here are rumours !!!

I'm one of those (dutch talking) Belgium paratroopers , and ISAF was my 7th mission , how many of you gise dit 7 missions ? Without any problems , no drinking problems , no drug problems , ... as I dit ?
The soldier that shot himself in the foot , wasn't that a 'profesionel' Canadian soldier ?  :
And who was that smart to send us out in an 'Iltis' , to try to stop a truck loaded with 800kg TNT ? :
Who broke in , in the mess , drunk (!) , to steel more alcohol ? Canadian ! :
Everyday the Belgium mess was open , it was full with Canadian people , try to get drunk ! :
Who was send out , the day of the elections and who stayed in CJ ? Who was send out to colect the amunition in the mountains ? To gard the carbomb and the roadsidebomb ? Who was laisy (are however you write it) !
And I can go on and on !
And when was there a drugraid ? I can't remember any drugraid , are it has to be with the frenchtalking , 2nd group !

Think , befor you talk !!!

Yes , some of us made mistakes , just like some of you made mistakes ! Thats why we 're human , those who doesn't do anything , won't make mistakes !!!

What were the real problems some of you had with the Belgiums ? None ?!

I ' ve made a few Canadian friends out there , with who I still have contact by e-mail , so I don't think we (Belgiums) are all that bad ! >

Sorry for my bad English !  ;D

 

[Britney Spears]

B P:

Relax, we already use 99% of the boards here  to whine/complain about dumbkopfs  in our own Canadian army, so we like to share the love amongst all our allies.

Most of the above thread is about leadership aspects of ISAF anyway, not about the individual soldiers.

 

[B P]

B P:

Relax, we already use 99% of the boards here   to whine/complain about dumbkopfs   in our own Canadian army, so we like to share the love amongst all our allies.

Most of the above thread is about leadership aspects of ISAF anyway, not about the individual soldiers.

Aahhh , OK , it's forgiven !  >

I had to write it of me !

 

[Britney Spears]

Heh, well I knew one of you would show up and balance things out a little eventually.

Welcome to the board, Para (and sorry about Romeo Dallair).

 

[pbi]

Welcome to the board, Para (and sorry about Romeo Dallair).

Excuse me? This was humour, right? Surely you haven't been appointed to apologize to the Belgian military (or to people who claim to be members of it...) for what you personally interpret the actions of Gen Dallaire to have been? Maybe I missed something here, or perhaps I'm over reacting?

Cheers.

 

[Britney Spears]

Excuse me? This was humour, right?

Mostly, yes. As I understand, Gen. Dallaire is a bit of a popular punching bag in Belgium, particularly amongst the Paras(and good luck trying to debate it with them). I meant it in the same vein as how we apologize to Americans about Celine Dion. Of course I understand that there is much more to both the Rwanda affair and the music of Ms. Dion than can be summed up in one sentence. 


What good are generals if we can't take cheap shots at them?

 

[baboon6]

Isn't Allied Rapid Reaction Corps taking over ISAF next year? I presume things would be better run with a mainly British HQ in charge. (Not that I am saying the Brits are the be-all and end-all of soldiering!)

 

[B P]

Excuse me? This was humour, right? Surely you haven't been appointed to apologize to the Belgian military (or to people who claim to be members of it...) for what you personally interpret the actions of Gen Dallaire to have been? Maybe I missed something here, or perhaps I'm over reacting?

Cheers.

1st bataljon paratroopers , 21st companie ! Yes I'm member of them , what do you want to now more to prove it ?
I now what happend in Ruanda , but I wasn't there , and it wasn't our unit ! Its a shame what happend there , but in every war people get killed , and I'm not gona hate a nation for the mistake(?) of one(?) man ! Like some of you blame the whole Belgium army , cus they had problems with a few men in Kabul ! Didn't you lost 4 man by the mistake of one American Appachepilot ? Isn't it normal that you got an other idee about the American than you dit befor ? But do you have to hate them all cus of that ?
I don't think so , everybody makes mistakes , but when an officer makes them , the consequenses are much bigger !

I was only interested for the problems in Kabul ! I was there and I now we dit a pretty good job there , what doesn't mean that I agree with everything that happend there , and specialy the leadership (generally , not only Belgium) !

 

[KevinB]

I'd say 99% of the time I was impressed with the Belgians - going outside the gate with three or four Para's each in an Iltis they had that "don't fuck with us" look down pat.

The comments I made where specific to events - events that happend.

I could make several portrayals of CF emmebrs that would not cast favourable light either - but the Drug issue in the Palace, and two incidents on patrol that kinda sent off a nerve with me that cast a lot of pale on whole Thats and that weird harold guy that kept calling himself Ramstein (he got repatted quite quick) his pistol ND in the Palace etc.

(which in hindsight is not fair since I was criticizing others for doing that about another certain event...)

More disgusting was a Canadian (non cbt arms) CSM cutting down or attempting to cut down the Para flag in the camp.

 

[B P]

I'd say 99% of the time I was impressed with the Belgians - going outside the gate with three or four Para's each in an Iltis they had that "don't **** with us" look down pat.

The comments I made where specific to events - events that happend.

I could make several portrayals of CF emmebrs that would not cast favourable light either - but the Drug issue in the Palace, and two incidents on patrol that kinda sent off a nerve with me that cast a lot of pale on whole Thats and that weird harold guy that kept calling himself Ramstein (he got repatted quite quick) his pistol ND in the Palace etc.

(which in hindsight is not fair since I was criticizing others for doing that about another certain event...)

More disgusting was a Canadian (non cbt arms) CSM cutting down or attempting to cut down the Para flag in the camp.

The CSM , mister Vay , or something , he was a  :crybaby: ,  he hated us ! And we hated him , but we got a reason for that !

I heared about the story in the Palace , that happend with the second group , the French talking guys , they were send home !
I don't now who that guy 'Rammstein' was , but I'm going to try to find that out ! I think I got an idee who it was ! ;D

I'm going to sleep now , it!s 11:50 in the evening here !
Greetz !

 

[Infanteer]

So, are we making up with eachother now? 

 

[Britney Spears]

So, are we making up with eachother now?

Not sure, I think pbi is still angry at me..... :crybaby:

 

[KevinB]

See even they have trouble with their French  ;D

BP - regarding Vey yup you got that guy nailed - lets just say he was not to popular with us either. 

I think 95% of the issues I related to where one the rotation from the german Belgians to the French Belgians (sorry if this is not the proper way to refer to the diversity)

The 1st group even warned us of the impending disaster -- and you Sgt Maj hooked a bunch of us up with your excellent Meindl Boots.