Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

[aesop081]

Sorry, But when innocent lives are on the line I feel that their should be no debating whether or not their should be an intervention.

There should be debate anytime military force is considered for use in another sovereign nation.

It is my belief this would put pressure on the U.N. to do something as well.

Far from it. China oposes intervention and China has veto. Do you want the US to intervene without UNSC approval ?

it could be huge for the region

Beware of the law of unintended consequences. What is "huge" today can rapidly turn into "more western imperialist intervention" tomorow.

I believe that this conflict wouldn’t require the type of long term military action as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quiet the bold pronouncement. You are basing this on....what ?

I have traveled to parts of the world and seen truly what “real life” is like and this is my basis for my beliefs.

I don't think Cancun, Mexico counts in this context.

 

[sean m]

The United nations as well as each nation independently should put more pressure on what China does.  You of course know a large amount about China's policies, don't you think that more should be done to stop their enactions of various violations of rights of all those in their nation both human and animal. Even though they are a rising super power in various avenues, this I feel is the only intellectual aspect about their policies. Because they have what other nations want they can do what ever they feel like. Don;t you think that democratic nations should deal with China's disregard for the rights of man. I feel that it is ridiculous, if it were not for us and other nations China would not have prospered so since they would not have dealings with these wealthy nations. So I feel if we can make them rich we can also change their policies if we actually try. Yet of course this involves business and money which people do not like to interfere with sadly. What do you and everyone else think about what should be done with these nations who don''t want to come to the aide of the citizens of Libya?

As I have explained, several times, China has a long standing policy of (almost) always opposing any foreign interference (which is what intervention is) in the "internal affairs" of other states. The basis for this pretty consistent Chinese policy (which they cheerfully violate, now and again, when it suits them) is that China rejects any and all "interference' (e.g. criticism) of Chinese "internal affairs' (e.g. human rights). But it is, thanks to its consistency, an intellectually defensible policy - which is rather more than one can say for the policies of Russia, India or America.

 

[aesop081]

What do you and everyone else think about what should be done with these nations who don''t want to come to the aide of the citizens of Libya?

Nothing.

They, just like Canada, have a sovereign right to decide what actions their country shall take, if any.

I suppose you would like to invade China too.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Sorry, But when innocent lives are on the line I feel that their sic should be no debating whether or not their should be an intervention ...

I know I'm repeating myself, but why Libya? Yes "innocent civilians" being killed by the dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands but what about the thousands and, indeed, mill.ions, in black Africa? They, obviously, didn't and still don't matter, so what makes Libyans different? Lighter skins?

And what about Bahrain? I know the Saudis are intervening, on the side of the (minority) government, but, hell's bells, Saudi Arabia is the at the root of the bloody problem, not part of the solution. Instead of worrying about Libya, let's invade Bahrain as a prelude to dismantling the House of Saud - now that is a worthy foreign policy objective.

 

[Journeyman]

You are absolutely right in terms of this crisis is not the fault of the Unites States. Yet the fact that they are the most powerful nation on earth has an impact on what military interventions are pursued.

So while it's no longer their fault, you believe they are obligated to be the world's policeman? If the people who are benefitting from Libyan oil (ie - Europe) don't care enough to intervene, why should the US?

It is my belief this would put pressure on the U.N. to do something as well.

Like what?!

.....which would promote the idea that injustice and dictatorship is no longer tolerated...[edit]..I am not trying to sound like some delusional ass

Make as many wishes as you want, injustice and dictatorship is tolerated...therefore....

It is my belief that if an intervention such as this were to occur, it could be huge for the region and any future popular uprising.  I believe that this conflict wouldn't require the type of long term military action as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes, a US-led intervention would be huge for the region -- absolutely. Western troops on the ground would be a lightning rod; it would attract every jihadist and wanna-be martyr from throughout the Islamic crescent. Saying you believe this intervention wouldn't require long-term military action further indicates your lack of understanding of general military history, let alone this current conflict. Any Western leader may be able to "declare" victory after 100 hours....but the troops would not be home by Christmas.


I believe that your "beliefs" -- regardless of the feel-good intent -- are naive, ill-informed, and would prove even more ruinous than the current situation.



Edit: Oh, and I see you want the UN to sort out China while we're at it.  :

 

[sean m]

To the contrary, if one were to examin how the world actualy works, the reasons are very apparent.

yes, blame the Americans. They started this after all......they must have. Shame on them.

                    Again,  I am not stating that they started this confrontation. But they should do more to promote and instigate military aide by the United Nations to help the citizens of Libya being ruthlessly attacked

It is tad early to invoke Godwin's law isn't it ?
          Okay My reference to genocide is off, Yet I feel this crisis is more that just a common abuse of human rights, you have to admit that at least.

And do........what ?

Join with the United nations,  support the movement towards democracy. The ousting and arrest of Muammar  Qaddafi (this may sound like juvenile thinking to you, yet these hostilities have proven further that Qaddafi is unfit to lead and should be punished for his crimes against humanity

Like most other countries. Just like this one.

I think Canada has shown much fore effort to help those in need than Russia or China. With Respect since you have made a great contribution to this country with your service, but I feel that your comments insults our country by comparing it to China and Russia in this regard

This is a valid concern. It is why i do not support Canadian involvement.
So then nothing will change and human rights will continue to go on unimpeded in this country and others. the abuses during  WWII  did not stop Canada or the other nations from intervening even when it turned to war.


You need to step back and look at things with less emotion and more practicality.

For a HUMINT hopeful, you sure like to fly off the handle well before analyzing things.

I believe that it is necessary to look at any situation such as this with emotion as well as practicality. Since I feel that  in order to judge accordingly of the proper intervention a person needs both.

In terms of analyzing things I feel that I have done the best I could in terms of the resources available. I do no yet have any military experience yet but I feel that I have done the best with what I have  and examing the facts. Considering the fact I am 21 I feel that I am more learned in terms of what is going on in the world, and can review in practically is better than most of my peers

 

[George Wallace]

............... Considering the fact I am 21 I feel that I am more learned in terms of what is going on in the world, and can review in practically is better than most of my peers

Ah!  This explains a lot.  I am sure you really don't want to know what it explains to us though.

 

[Edward Campbell]

sean m, you said: "Qaddafi is unfit to lead and should be punished for his crimes against humanity." I agree; he can get right in line behind Mugabe and about a dozen others ... of course we'll need to invade intervene in Zimbabwe, first, then we could work our way North, state worthy of our attention following state needing our attention, until, in about a century or two, we arrive in Libya.

 

[Journeyman]

In terms of analyzing things I feel that I have done the best I could in terms of the resources available.

You have done absolutely ZERO analysis.

You railed against the US, China, and Russia...wringing your hands and gnashing your teeth....decrying inadequate UN action while invoking the ghost of Nazi genocide. I suspect you don't actually know the meaning of the term "analysis."

I feel that I am more learned in terms of what is going on in the world, and can review in practically is better than most of my peers

Then we are well and truly fucked.

 

[aesop081]

          Okay My reference to genocide is off,

"Off" is not what i was thinking.

So then nothing will change and human rights will continue to go on unimpeded in this country and others. the abuses during  WWII  did not stop Canada or the other nations from intervening even when it turned to war.

You need to re-read your history.

 

[sean m]

I feel that if the U.N. were to involve themselves in this conflict, that they would be seen less as attacking a sovereign nation than attempting to remove a dictator.  Considering the Libyan people have asked for help

I believe military interventions have been done without U.N. approval prior.  China has continued to disregard laws set up by international community, so they can do what they want freely? I belive the West and other nations should intervene without approval, considering that the countries who are rejecting the UN to intervene are those with economic interests in the current regime

I feel that Libya has more infastructure than a country like Afghanistan. The people, if I have read correctly do not seem to be extremely religiously radical. There does not seem to be a huge inter tribal or racial conflict in the country. Though considering Gaddafi is Bedouin either
they might cause problems or problems might occur do to their support of him. The same with the Africans their since there have been sub saharan mercenaries supporting gaddafi.. Again this is my belief.

I have never been to cancun mexico. I have done volunteer construction work in: costa rica and Kenya. Please dont take me for some spoiled brat who does not know anything when I have traveled and read alot more than my peers

 

[George Wallace]

sean m

If you can't figure out how to post properly, you will find that your posts will be removed.  Either edit them to make them make sense, or delete them.  I am sure, down the line at some time in the future CDN Aviator does not want to have your words showing up as his.


George
army.ca Staff

 

[sean m]

I want to help bring about a more democratic world wear people have the same quality of life we do here. I do not want military intervention yet if it is necessary to bring about real change then I feel it should not be over looked

Nothing.

They, just like Canada, have a sovereign right to decide what actions their country shall take, if any.

I suppose you would like to invade China too.

 

[sean m]

Sorry Sir, I made a mistake there. Won't happen again.  I am sorry Mr. CDN aviator

sean m

If you can't figure out how to post properly, you will find that your posts will be removed.  Either edit them to make them make sense, or delete them.  I am sure, down the line at some time in the future CDN Aviator does not want to have your words showing up as his.


George
army.ca Staff

 

[Edward Campbell]

Sorry Sir, I made a mistake there. Won't happen again.  I am sorry Mr. CDN aviator

It would help if, instead of apologizing (in a manner than looks sarcastic to me), you went back and corrected your bloody mistake.

 

[aesop081]

I feel that if the U.N. were to involve themselves in this conflict, that they would be seen less as attacking a sovereign nation than attempting to remove a dictator.  Considering the Libyan people have asked for help

What is it about "veto' that escapes you ?

I believe military interventions have been done without U.N. approval prior.

Indeed. Witness Iraq in 2003. The world realy rallied behind the US on that one........... :

I belive the West and other nations should intervene without approval,

The results of that are predictable.

I feel that Libya has more infastructure than a country like Afghanistan.

So we should intervene only in better-developed countries ? Interesting idea........

I have never been to cancun mexico. I have done volunteer construction work in: costa rica and Kenya. Please dont take me for some spoiled brat who does not know anything when I have traveled and read alot more than my peers

By your age i had already served my first tour of duty in one of the world's less pleasant places. I had already learned that grand idealism usualy fails to face reality. You did construction work, i watched people kill themselves and the world try to get in the middle.

 

[sean m]

I know I'm repeating myself, but why Libya? Yes "innocent civilians" being killed by the dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands but what about the thousands and, indeed, mill.ions, in black Africa? They, obviously, didn't and still don't matter, so what makes Libyans different? Lighter skins?

And what about Bahrain? I know the Saudis are intervening, on the side of the (minority) government, but, hell's bells, Saudi Arabia is the at the root of the bloody problem, not part of the solution. Instead of worrying about Libya, let's invade Bahrain as a prelude to dismantling the House of Saud - now that is a worthy foreign policy objective.

I have been in Africa and have learned about some of the cultures there. There needs to be intervention everywhere where people are being oppressed not matter what their skin colour is.  Africa is the epitome of an areas which requires military intervention which develops true democracy and human rights. Yet many Western interests in business Politics and other areas have an interest in the condition of the continent as it is. I feel right now we should focus on the countries who peoples are attempting and paying for with their lives to obtain freedom and democracy.  Hopefully this sentiment will continue on into Africa.  Bahrain is the same situation as Libya and yes you are right we should help the democratic process in that nation. Invade I feel is not the right word considering we are attacking the government not the nation or people as a whole. If this were to help undermine the royal Saudi family then great, this would lead to steps in the right direction for the Saudi People as well

 

[sean m]

Can someone please state how to fix that problem please I do not know what to search to help modify the problem

It would help if, instead of apologizing (in a manner than looks sarcastic to me), you went back and corrected your bloody mistake.

 

[sean m]

So while it's no longer their fault, you believe they are obligated to be the world's policeman? If the people who are benefitting from Libyan oil (ie - Europe) don't care enough to intervene, why should the US?
Like what?!
Make as many wishes as you want, injustice and dictatorship is tolerated...therefore....
Yes, a US-led intervention would be huge for the region -- absolutely. Western troops on the ground would be a lightning rod; it would attract every jihadist and wanna-be martyr from throughout the Islamic crescent. Saying you believe this intervention wouldn't require long-term military action further indicates your lack of understanding of general military history, let alone this current conflict. Any Western leader may be able to "declare" victory after 100 hours....but the troops would not be home by Christmas.


I believe that your "beliefs" -- regardless of the feel-good intent -- are naive, ill-informed, and would prove even more ruinous than the current situation.


Edit: Oh, and I see you want the UN to sort out China while we're at it.  :

I think every democratic 1st world nation should act in a way as policemen in order to bring about the results which are the same as our situation

It is tolerated because nothing is done about it, with recent events hopefully that could change


Of course there would be resistance from the radicals in the Muslim world. The West is already hated for the current operations. I never stated I thought that the intervention would be short, just that I believe it would be less long as the two current areas the west is involved in militarily, which I gave my reasons for.  You give the possible negative set backs yet you cannot deny that there is a chance that they results could be positive for both the west and democratic movement of Libya I admitted to the fact I do not know an extreme amount there is to know about tactics, that is why I read and attempt to learn. Did you have a great amount of knowledge at 21?

 

[aesop081]

Can someone please state how to fix that problem please I do not know what to search to help modify the problem

can a mod sort this out for him, before he make things even worse ??