Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

[Redeye]

I know the B52 is large enough to launch cruise missiles, but that's the only aerial platform I can think of.

Would the JSOW and/or JSSAM count as "cruise missiles"?  They're carried by F-15Es.

More likely than not, it's just journalistic "license".

 

[MarkOttawa]

Problems with this sort of international action:

A Very Liberal Intervention, By ROSS DOUTHAT
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/opinion/21douthat.html

In its month-long crab walk toward a military confrontation with Libya’s Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Obama administration has delivered a clinic in the liberal way of war.

Just a week ago, as the tide began to turn against the anti-Qaddafi rebellion, President Obama seemed determined to keep the United States out of Libya’s civil strife. But it turns out the president was willing to commit America to intervention all along. He just wanted to make sure we were doing it in the most multilateral, least cowboyish fashion imaginable...

But there are major problems with this approach to war as well. Because liberal wars depend on constant consensus-building within the (so-called) international community, they tend to be fought by committee, at a glacial pace, and with a caution that shades into tactical incompetence. And because their connection to the national interest is often tangential at best, they’re often fought with one hand behind our back and an eye on the exits, rather than with the full commitment that victory can require.

These problems dogged American foreign policy throughout the 1990s, the previous high tide of liberal interventionism. In Somalia, the public soured on our humanitarian mission as soon as it became clear that we would be taking casualties as well as dispensing relief supplies. In the former Yugoslavia, NATO imposed a no-flight zone in 1993, but it took two years of hapless peacekeeping and diplomatic wrangling, during which the war proceeded unabated, before American air strikes finally paved the way for a negotiated peace.

Our 1999 intervention in Kosovo offers an even starker cautionary tale. The NATO bombing campaign helped topple Slobodan Milosevic and midwifed an independent Kosovo. But by raising the stakes for both Milosevic and his Kosovo Liberation Army foes, the West’s intervention probably inspired more bloodletting and ethnic cleansing in the short term, exacerbating the very humanitarian crisis it was intended to forestall [emphasis added--indeed the intervention did--the vast majority of the Kosovar refugees fled/were forced out after the NATO bombing started; Blair and Bush were personally out to get Milosevic just as many are out to get Kadhafi now].

The same kind of difficulties are already bedeviling our Libyan war. Our coalition’s aims are uncertain...

The ultimate hope of liberal warfare is to fight as virtuously as possible, and with the minimum of risk. But war and moralism are uneasy bedfellows, and “low risk” conflicts often turn out to be anything but. By committing America to the perils of yet another military intervention, Barack Obama has staked an awful lot on the hope that our Libyan adventure will prove an exception to this rule.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Commons' take-note debate on Libya now on CPAC; neither CBC News Network nor CTV News Channel covering live.  Important subject--or important chamber, eh?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[FoverF]

Are the jets really firing "cruise missles"? I was under the impression that generally speaking a cruise missle was a naval platform......that or a bomber function.

Any experts round here'?

RAF Tornados are capable of firing Storm Shadow cruise missiles, and they have been used in Libya, according to the MoD

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/UpdatedBritishArmedForcesLaunchStrikeAgainstLibyanAirDefenceSystems.htm

French Mirage 2000s are also capable of firing them.

It is planned to fit Italian Tornados, as well as Italian and RAF Eurofighters with this weapon, but I do not know if it is yet operational on any of these aircraft.

 

[57Chevy]

Monday morning mission

Photo;
Canadian jet fighters have flown their first mission in the skies over Libya as part of a coalition effort to rein in Moammar Gadhafi’s crackdown on pro-democracy rebels.
ALESSANDRO BIANCHI/REUTERS

article:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/957514--canadian-fighter-jets-fly-first-mission-in-libyan-no-fly-zone

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from the Canadian Press:

"The Harper government rallied opposition parties to "war" Monday, casting Canada's military intervention in the Libyan crisis as a moral imperative.  A House of Commons debate took place within hours of the air force carrying out its first combat patrol to enforce the UN-mandated no-fly zone over the embattled north African country.  But the continuing war in Afghanistan and its political divisions cast a long shadow over MPs as they weighed the complexity and uncertainty of the international community's goals in Libya.  Defence Minister Peter MacKay said the atrocities of dictator Moammar Gadhafi could not go unanswered.  "This government along with the international community cannot stand idly by," said MacKay who opened debate on a motion to approve the deployment of military forces …. MacKay couldn't say how long the no-fly mission would last, but said no one wants to have forces in harm's way any longer than necessary.  The motion, which sources said was the subject of feverish back room drafting among the parties, passed unanimously late Monday night ...."

 

[old medic]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/21/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's momentum has stopped and rebels have been able to hold onto areas that government forces had been poised to capture just a few days ago, a U.S. official said Monday.

The regime's efforts appeared to have "stalled" as Gadhafi has declared a cease-fire, the official said.

The coalition is watching carefully to see if Gadhafi's assertion "is a pledge or just words," the official said.

An opposition spokesman said he already knew the answer, at least as it pertains to Misrata, a key city about two hours east of Tripoli. "There is no cease-fire in Misrata," said Mohamed, who would not divulge his last name out of concern for his safety. "The destruction is unimaginable."

He said the city, the last in the west under rebel control, has had no electricity, telephone service or drinking water for at least two weeks and was bombarded heavily over the past four days by forces loyal to Gadhafi.

"He keeps talking about a cease-fire, but he hasn't observed that for one minute here," Mohamed said.

Based on what he saw at a hospital, the opposition spokesman said Monday's death toll among civilians at the hands of pro-Gadhafi forces was 15. Another 51 civilians died in weekend attacks by pro-Gadhafi forces, Mohamed said.

Late Monday, state television reported that Misrata was firmly in the hands of government forces, and urged residents to celebrate......

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's the Commons motion passed yesterday:

Pursuant to the motion adopted earlier today after question period, there have been discussions among the parties and I believe you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

  That, in standing in solidarity with those seeking freedom in Libya, the House welcomes United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973; that the House deplores the ongoing use of violence by the Libyan regime against the Libyan people; acknowledges the demonstrable need, regional support and clear legal basis for urgent action to protect the people of Libya; consequently, the government shall work with our allies, partners and the United Nations to promote and support all aspects of UNSC Resolution 1973, which includes the taking of all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in Libya and to enforce the no-fly zone, including the use of the Canadian Forces and military assets in accordance with UNSC Resolution 1973; that the House requests that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development and the Standing Committee on National Defence remain seized of Canada's activities under UNSC Resolution 1973; that should the government require an extension to the involvement of the Canadian Forces for more than three months from the passage of this motion, the government shall return to the House at its earliest opportunity to debate and seek the consent of the House for such an extension; and that the House offers its wholehearted support to the men and women of the Canadian Forces.

Here's links to the debate from Hansard and in PDF format (49 pages).

 

[FoverF]

F-15E crashes in Libya

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8397587/Libya-US-fighter-jet-crash-lands-in-field-near-Benghazi.html

 

[tomahawk6]

Both aircrew are safe and in US control.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Good to hear US aircrew OK....

Meanwhile, a Tweet from the HMS Cumberland** that made me giggle:

Good job BBC don't aim cruise missiles — http://t.co/A3LcuhU — Naval base is in eastern corner of Tripoli harbour, 3.5km from Green Sq

** - not from the ship itself, but from UK's MoD maintaining a Twitter feed associated with the ship.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Swedish Gripens too?

Libya: Sweden Prepares for Possible Gripen Use
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a60ba62d5-ec9b-40d3-8af1-b9a732e0bfd3

Although the Swedish armed forced have so far not received a national mandate to participate in the enforcement of U.N. Resolution 1973 to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya, the country's air force is drawing up contingency plans for potential use of the JAS-39 Gripen fighter.

It would be Sweden's first combat deployment of the strike fighter.
Swedish military planners say six to eight Gripens and their crews could be contributed if the green light for such an operation is given.

The Gripens are currently on alert as part of the Nordic Battlegroup, but Swedish military officials say a deployment of the fighter would likely take place under the national umbrella, rather than the NBG.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[a_majoor]

Belated American response by the administration is now opening up Constitutional issues on the home front:

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A74A9456-12D2-4422-9EEB-30EE2F586527

Did Obama lose Congress on Libya?
By: Jonathan Allen and Marin Cogan
March 21, 2011 05:20 PM EDT

President Barack Obama is facing growing anger from lawmakers who believe he overstepped his authority by launching missile strikes into Libya without first seeking the consent of Congress.

The criticism is from all directions: from moderates, like Sens. Jim Webb (D-Va.) and Dick Lugar (R-Ind.); from those on the far left and right, like Reps. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) and Ron Paul (R-Texas), who believe the president acted outside the Constitution; and from the establishment on both sides, including House Democratic Caucus Chairman John Larson of Connecticut and Republican Rep. Candice Miller of Michigan, a self-described “hawk.”

What it adds up to is this: The president, already taking heat for a perceived lack of engagement on pressing domestic matters, will arrive home from South America needing to justify to Congress and the public his decision to use force in Libya without seeking approval.

It remains to be seen whether Congress has reached a tipping point in its cession of war-making power to the executive branch, but it’s clear that U.S. intervention in Libya has hit a nerve with a war weary legislative branch.

“What is the vital U.S. national interest? … How much does he think it will cost us? What is the scope of the mission? How do you define success?” Miller said, ticking off a list of unanswered questions. “The president should come home, call us into session … and explain what he’s doing.”

Webb, a Marine and former Navy secretary, warned Monday on MSNBC that Congress has “been sort of on autopilot for almost 10 years now, in terms of presidential authority, in conducting these types of military operations absent the meaningful participation of the Congress.”

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) tweeted Sunday that the president is treating Congress as a “potted plant.”

Kucinich, whose words still hold sway among some on the left, raised the question of why it’s not called an impeachable offense.

“We’re neutered as a Congress. It’s like we don’t exist,” said Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.), a longtime member of the Armed Services Committee who turned against the Iraq War. “I wish the president had not gone into Libya without first coming to Congress. We have for too long, as a Congress, been too passive when it comes to sending our young men and women to war.”

Some Republicans are considering bringing a vote on Libya to the House floor, though it’s not clear exactly what they would vote on.

“This is not a partisan issue with me; I have serious concerns about how prior Republican presidents have used or potentially misused that authority, and I think this should trigger a debate within Congress and [among] the American people about proper interpretation and application of [the] Constitution. I’m surprised more conservatives aren’t speaking out about this issue,” freshman Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.) told POLITICO. “American lives were not at risk in Libya at the time, and Libya was not a material threat to the United States or its territory, and it’s difficult.”

During a Monday press briefing, the president’s national security adviser, Tom Donilon, responded to congressional frustration over the level of consultation this way:

“First of all, consultation with Congress is important, as I said. Secondly, the administration welcomes the support of Congress in whatever form that they want to express that support. Third, as I indicated during the course of the briefing, this is a limited — in terms of scope, duration and task — operation, which does fall in the president’s authorities. Fourth, the circumstances arose with the passage of the United Nations Security Council on Thursday, the night before a congressional recess. So he did, even with that, call Congress — those who remained in town on Friday and those who are out of town — on the phone to consult with them.”

On Monday, Obama sent an official letter to Capitol Hill informing Congress of the military actions and invoking his authority under the War Powers law.

Though Obama convened congressional party and committee leaders for a White House Situation Room briefing Friday, many lawmakers say that doesn’t amount to the kind of consultation with Congress intended by the War Powers Resolution. Others say the law, which prescribes how the president must inform Congress of foreign military action, is unconstitutional.

Even among those who believe the president had the authority to launch the strikes, there is some sentiment that he should have done more to seek congressional approval.

Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), who is considering a bid for the Senate seat held by Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), told POLITICO it’s “very troubling” that Obama sought approval from the United Nations but not Congress.

Republican leaders have been nearly silent on the matter.

Speaker John Boehner is the only House GOP leader to issue a public statement on the U.S.-backed military campaign, saying that the president has to “better explain” America’s role in targeting Muammar Qadhafi’s forces and “do a better job of communicating to the American people and to Congress about our mission in Libya and how it will be achieved.”

The remarks of rank-and-file Republicans reflect the desire to hear more from the president.

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy of California and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky have not commented on U.S. efforts to back Libyan rebels and impose a no-fly zone over the troubled North African country.

Republican Reps. Buck McKeon of California, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida and Mike Rogers of Michigan, who chair the Armed Services, Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, respectively, have taken similar lines to Boehner in their public statements on Libya.

Cornyn, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, is one of the few senior Republicans in the chamber who spoke out. He’s calling for a congressional vote authorizing Obama to engage in the Libyan campaign.

“On Libya, is Congress going to assert it’s constitutional role or be a potted plant?” Cornyn tweeted Sunday.

The influential class of 87 House Republican freshmen — which has yet to face a real foreign policy test — has widely divergent opinions.

Rep. Justin Amash of Michigan questioned the legality of the strikes from a constitutional perspective, while Rep. Chris Gibson of New York questioned the nation’s ability to add to its foreign commitments. Reps. Renee Ellmers of North Carolina and Vicky Hartzler of Missouri, however, support the action.

“It’s a little belated. We have a moral obligation for people wanting freedom who are being slaughtered by a dictator,” said Hartzler, who sits on the Armed Services Committee. “I’m glad we have foreign allies helping us in this, but the president needs to be more defined in his mission, and I think that’s something he should work with us on. … I’m glad he moved in now. I think it’s a good thing he got involved.”

Ellmers, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, agreed that the strikes are appropriate, but called on Obama to explain his plan to Congress.

“The violence against the people of Libya by Muammar Qadhafi is unacceptable, and it must end. The United States stands with those who seek freedom in that country and around the world. But we must have a coherent strategy anytime we utilize U.S. military force abroad,” Ellmers said. “Now that President Obama has ordered airstrikes and engaged the U.S. military in Libya, he needs to provide more information to Congress and to the American people.”

During a Saturday conference call among House Democrats, a group of veteran liberals, including Reps. Jerrold Nadler of New York, Donna Edwards of Maryland, Mike Capuano of Massachusetts, Maxine Waters of California, Rob Andrews of New Jersey, Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas, Barbara Lee of California, D.C. Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton and Kucinich, expressed concerns about the constitutionality of the strikes.

“The president is acting outside of the authority of the Constitution. There is no question about that whatsoever,” Kucinich said Monday on MSBNC. He also argued that the president is making a costly mistake. “We have money for endless wars, and we can’t take care of things here at home.”

Larson, chairman of the Democratic Caucus, had said before the missile strikes that the president should consult with Congress prior to taking any military action.

Some Republicans note that former President George W. Bush sought and won congressional approval of use-of-force resolutions before striking in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Gibson, who commanded a brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division, said America doesn’t have the resources to open another front.

“Our country is currently facing a myriad of challenges, including working to complete our objectives in Iraq and Afghanistan, protecting our cherished way of life from extremist terrorist networks and struggling here at home to address a skyrocketing deficit that poses a tremendous threat to our national security,” Gibson said. “Now is not the time to take on new missions. The Libyans must decide their own fate, and we should stop our military operations immediately.”

— John Bresnahan and Jake Sherman contributed to this report.

 

[a_majoor]

Something to think about next time you reach for the PTT switch....

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/secret-libya-psyops/

Listen: Secret Libya Psyops, Caught by Online Sleuths

    * By Noah Shachtman Email Author
   
The U.S. military has dispatched one of its secret propaganda planes to the skies around Libya. And that “Commando Solo” aircraft is telling Libyan ships to remain in port – or risk NATO retaliation.

We know this, not because some Pentagon official said so, but because one Dutch radio geek is monitoring the airwaves for information about Operation Odyssey Dawn — and tweeting the surprisingly-detailed results. On Sunday alone, “Huub” has identified the tail numbers, call signs, and movements of dozens of NATO aircraft: Italian fighter jets, American tankers, British aerial spies, U.S. bombers, and the Commando Solo psyops plane (pictured).

“If you attempt to leave port, you will be attacked and destroyed immediately,” the aircraft broadcasted late Sunday night.

It’s the kind of information that the American military typically tries to obscure, at least until a mission is over. But Huub is just a single node in a sprawling online network that trawls the airwaves for clues to military operations.

Huub, also known online as “BlackBox” and @FMCNL, has been monitoring longer than most — more than a quarter-century. A former member of the Dutch military, he says that he’s captured the sounds of everything from Air Force One to CIA rendition flights to the travels of Yugoslavian war criminal Slobodan Mlosevic.

“I just combine the global and free information on the Internet with my local received information from the ether,” Huub e-mails Danger Room. “[My] main goal to listen to this communication is to listen to ‘the truth,’ without any military or political propaganda.”

Military aircraft have to provide basic information about their position over unencrypted, unclassified UHF and VHF radio networks; otherwise, they’d risk slamming into civilian jets in mid-air. That allows savvy listeners like Huub to use radio frequency scanners, amplifiers, and antennas to capture the communications. Some spend thousands of dollars homebrewing their own DIY listening stations. Many others – Huub included – rely on handheld gear, much of which can be ordered through Radio Shack. Huub uses the ICOM R20 receiver and the Uniden UBC-785XLT scanner, both of which retail for a little more than $500.

But the type of gear is almost secondary, Huub writes. “I do not simply listen to ATC [air traffic control] or NATO frequencies,” he says. Instead, he monitors everything from aircraft transponder data to IRC chatrooms to pinpoint his planes. “I use a combination of live listening with local equipment, audio streaming, video streaming, datamining, intelligence, analyzing and the general knowledge of ATC procedures, communication, encryption, call signs, frequencies and a lot of experience on this!”

Huub, who ordinarily spends his days as a digital forensics manager in the town of Hilversum, has lately spent up to 16 hours a day, scanning for clues about the attack on Libya. Some of his Twitter followers aren’t so sure Huub should be devoting that much time to plucking military data from the sky.

“If you are not delaying your tweets by a WIDE margin, you are putting the pilots in harms way!!!!” tweets @Joe_Taxi. “When the sounds of the #operationoddesydawn aircraft are heard in #Libya it should be a complete surprise.”

Huub is hardly the only one eavesdropping on this operation, however. At least two others recorded the Commando Solo in action on Sunday, for instance.

And that shows just how easily average folks can now gather intelligence in ways once reserved for the best-funded spy agencies. Online sleuths now use Google Earth to find everything from North Korea’s launch facilities to Pakistan’s drone bases. Plane-spotters scoured tail numbers to uncover the CIA’s torture flights. So it’s no wonder that the sounds of this newest air war are being broadcast online — even before the planes return to their airstrips.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Al Jazeera English is "hosting" an open source info "Target, force and casualty data" document, categorized by country, over at Google Docs here.  It's "read only" for the moment because too many people are, apparently, trying to update it.

edited to add this:  U.S. still working on handing the command baton over to someone else:

The United States will still be able to pass command of Libyan military operations to allies within the next few days, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Tuesday, brushing aside concerns of a potential delay.

Divisions in Europe have fueled speculation that Washington will be forced to retain leadership of air patrols to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya, even once an initial U.S.-led bombardment against air defenses is complete.

"I don't want to get out in front of the diplomacy that's been going on but I still think that a transfer within a few days is likely," Gates told reporters during a visit to Russia.

He declined to say who might lead the operations but left open the possibility that "NATO machinery" might be drawn upon once the United States steps back to a support role.

"This isn't a NATO mission. This is a mission in which the NATO machinery may be used for command and control," he said ....

 

[old medic]

CNN Blog

In a rare public spat, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev criticized his political mentor, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, for Putin's comments over the use of force against Libya.

Putin on Monday said the U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing a no-fly zone over Libya was "obviously incomplete and flawed." He added that it "resembles a medieval appeal for a crusade in which somebody calls upon somebody to go to a certain place and liberate it."

A few hours later Medvedev weighed in, scolding Putin's comments, without using the prime minister's name. "It is absolutely inexcusable to use expressions that, in effect, lead to a clash of civilizations - such as 'crusades,' and so on. That is unacceptable," Medvedev said.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/21/libya.zawiya.mosque/index.html

Satellite images of a Libyan city, provided to CNN by an intelligence source, appear to show evidence that pro-Gadhafi forces razed a mosque that recently served as a rebel command center.

The two images of an area of Zawiya, west of Tripoli, were taken February 20 and March 20, according to the source, who provided them on condition of anonymity.

In the first picture, a mosque can clearly be seen just south of Zawiya's Martyrs' Square, but in the later picture, the mosque is gone.

The images, the source said, were released as part of the international effort to build pressure on Gadhafi and to illustrate what coalition members say are crimes against his own people...............

 

[CountDC]

hmmmm something doesn't look right about the mosque pictures - maybe my eyes.  Also don't understand how the destruction of a Rebel Command Center falls into "crimes against his people".  Seems to me the rebels were the ones that committed the crime when they took the Mosque and turned it into a Command Center.   

I know I know - he is the bad guy so everything he does is wrong while the rebels are the good guys so can not do any wrong.  Does anyone really believe the rebels are not killing civilians too?  Anyone care to walk into a rebel strong hold and state they support Gadhafi?  I think this one still has lots of interesting play and more than a few people will not be happy with the end game regardless of which side wins. Me - I am betting it will be a case of trading the devil they know for the devil they don't know.

 

[WingsofFury]

A 2 ship package of CF-18's with Task Force Libeccio were deployed to strike an airfield as part of enforcing the No Fly Zone over Libya. No bombs were dropped as the risk of collateral damage was high. Canadian Forces CC-150T Polaris tanker aircraft are being utilised by the CF-18's and other allied forces as well.

Good to hear that the upgrades both the CF-18's and CC-150's frames underwent are making a difference.

 

[WingsofFury]

CBC had decided to tell the Canadian public about our CF-18's.  The article can be found here: Canada's CF-18 Hornet's

At first glance, these are the factual errors which I've found:

#1 - CF-18's were based on the design of the A/B models and only after the upgrades are they up to C/D model levels.

#2 - While they share some common weaponry, the Super Hornet can carry a wider ...selection of armament. It can also carry a heavier payload.

#3 - Super Hornets aren't lighter than our legacy Hornets at all.

#4 - No CF-18 Hornets are stationed at CFB Trenton. They use the base as a Deployed Operating Base and conduct Quick Reaction Alert training from there.

I'm going to leave the claim about JSF costs ballooning alone, as that is another topic for another sub forum.

 

[Journeyman]

hmmmm something doesn't look right about the mosque pictures...

You mean the complete absence of debris, and when you zoom in on the photo (in the source link) it looks to be pixilated to a different degree than the surrounding square?

Nah....I wouldn't worry about it; I'm sure it's legit