Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

[Fishbone Jones]

Mutually resolved by PM

 

[OldSolduer]

Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.

And so far, the U.N. Security Council's had this to say after a session today (22 Feb 11) - cynical highlights mine:

.... The members of the Security Council expressed grave concern at the situation in Libya.  They condemned the violence and use of force against civilians, deplored the repression against peaceful demonstrators, and expressed deep regret at the deaths of hundreds of civilians.  They called for an immediate end to the violence and for steps to address the legitimate demands of the population, including through national dialogue.

The members of the Security Council called on the Government of Libya to meet its responsibility to protect its population.  They called upon the Libyan authorities to act with restraint, to respect human rights and international humanitarian law, and to allow immediate access for international human rights monitors and humanitarian agencies.

The members of the Security Council called for international humanitarian assistance to the people of Libya and expressed concern at the reports of shortages of medical supplies to treat the wounded.  They strongly urged the Libyan authorities to ensure the safe passage of humanitarian and medical supplies and humanitarian workers into the country.

The members of the Security Council underlined the need for the Government of Libya to respect the freedom of peaceful assembly and of expression, including freedom of the press.  They called for the immediate lifting of restrictions on all forms of the media.

The members of the Security Council stressed the importance of accountability.  They underscored the need to hold to account those responsible for attacks, including by forces under their control, on civilians.

The members of the Security Council expressed deep concern about the safety of foreign nationals in Libya.  They urged the Libyan authorities and all relevant parties to ensure the safety of all foreign nationals and facilitate the departure of those wishing to leave the country.

The members of the Security Council will continue to follow the situation closely.

Meanwhile, Canada's getting ready to help Canadians get outta Dodge - this from DFAIT:

.... The Government of Canada expects to have an evacuation flight out of Tripoli on Thursday, February 24th. Canada is also working very closely with like-minded countries to secure seats for Canadians on their evacuation flights.

Canadian citizens in Libya registered with the Registration of Canadians Abroad service (ROCA) will be contacted by our Emergency Operations Centre to determine their travel intentions. 

Canadians in Libya who wish to be evacuated should call the Emergency Operations Centre in Ottawa collect at 00-1-613-996-8885, or call the Embassy of Canada in Tripoli at 218 (21) 335-1633 in order to register their interest.

Canadian Government chartered flights will be operated on a cost-recovery basis. Canadians will be advised of the cost before boarding. Safe haven destinations will be in Europe.

Canadian citizens will be expected to make their own onward travel plans at their own expense.

Departure information may change without notice due to logistical difficulties ....

More from CBC.ca, Reuters, AFP, Globe & Mail and CTV.ca.

 

[brihard]

Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.

I recognize the general merits of the Westphalian system, and the need, in most instances, to respect principles of sovereignty. This is a case however that points out the necessarily finite nature of sovereignty, and the moral hazard inherent in upholding it unflinchingly, and without regard for the consequences of doing so. Gadhafi has failed in his responsibility to his population, and in fact has turned on them fully, with murderous intent and effect. I stand by my call to smoke the bastard with a JDAM. I'm comfortable with a precedent stating that dictators who order their military to turn on their citizens become damned by their actions, and can either surrender immediately, or become fair game in order to protect innocent life. A man who still commands sufficient loyalty from some of the army to do what he's doing is a rogue, and must be treated as such. Sovereignty ceases to be paramount when a state fails to faithfully fulfill it's responsibilities to the body politic.

 

[willellis]

Yes. He's ordering the wholesale murder, by his armed forces, of his own citizens. This 'internal affairs of a sovereign country' bullshit has allowed any number of atrocities to occur over the past decades as the United Nations and other impotentt bodies wring their hands and write increasingly terse and angsty notes. He has lost all moral mandate to be in any position of governance, is committing undeniable crimes against humanity, and is a clear and present danger in the most immediate sense to the lives of the citizens of Libya.

If we can get a positive location on Gadhafi, drop a JDAM on him. It may not make things much better, but it will eliminate one factor that continues to make things worse. While we're at it, whack his sons who are cheerleading his massacres.

Don't get me wrong- if we can get our hands on him instead and put him on trial in the international criminal court, I'm fine with that too. But not if it means one additional person will die while we wait for the grab.

There are times where the precise, unapologetic, unannounced application of lethal force by an external actor is exactly what a given situation merits. This is one of them.

+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

IIRC, they get almost none of their oil from Libya.

 

[willellis]

IIRC, they get almost none of their oil from Libya.

Quite probable, never the less, the US wouldn't look to good if they sign a business deal for oil, and then 7 years later, they are blowing the crap out of the country trying to find some lunatic.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quite probable, never the less, the US wouldn't look to good if they sign a business deal for oil, and then 7 years later, they are blowing the crap out of the country trying to find some lunatic.

Didn't they just do that in a little place called Iraq?

 

[aesop081]

+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

US imports of Libyan oil totaled 80 000 barels per day in 2009, representing only 5% of Libya's exports. Not exactly something to lose sleep over.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Libya/Oil.html

 

[willellis]

Didn't they just do that in a little place called Iraq?

Yup, and they look like idiots for doing so.

 

[willellis]

US imports of Libyan oil totaled 80 000 barels per day in 2009, representing only 5% of Libya's exports. Not exactly something to lose sleep over.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Libya/Oil.html

True, but I don't think it is the amount of oil that is the factor, but rather they are business partners.

 

[George Wallace]

willellis

I see you haven't read much history.  They have invaded Mexico, Cuba, Canada, Panama, various Caribbean Island nations, and a long list of other once friendly nations over the past 200 years or so.  Why would this be an exception?

 

[willellis]

willellis

I see you haven't read much history.  They have invaded Mexico, Cuba, Canada, Panama, various Caribbean Island nations, and a long list of other once friendly nations over the past 200 years or so.  Why would this be an exception?

I believe that times have changed since then. I know that Panama was only 30 years ago, but even still, I feel that this is not something that will benefit the US if they were to go through with it.

 

[aesop081]

True, but I don't think it is the amount of oil that is the factor, but rather they are business partners.

The Waha Oil Company, which is owned by a Libyan company called "National Oil Corporation" in a joint venture with ConocoPhillips, Marathon Oil and Amerada Hess.

I just started looking but i have yet to find any other US buisness with Libyan oil companies.

I feel that this is not something that will benefit the US if they were to go through with it.

For the record, i dont think anyone has anything to gain ( and much to lose) by intervening here.

 

[willellis]

The Waha Oil Company, which is owned by a Libyan company called "National Oil Corporation" in a joint venture with ConocoPhillips, Marathon Oil and Amerada Hess.

I just started looking but i have yet to find any other US buisness with Libyan oil companies.

For the record, i dont think anyone has anything to gain ( and much to lose) by intervening here.

I am nearly certain that BP had signed deals in 2004 with Libya. As for intervention, I agree. I was just discussing with family that I have such admiration for people that are willing to step up in the face of tyranny, and say enough is enough. The country will be better for it if they can overthrow this so called "government".

 

[aesop081]

I am nearly certain that BP had signed deals in 2004 with Libya.

BP = British Petroleum

 

[Kat Stevens]

BP = British Petroleum

...And I believe it's Dutch owned.

 

[The Bread Guy]

+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

Zat right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/15/newsid_3975000/3975455.stm

I see you haven't read much history.  They have invaded Mexico, Cuba, Canada, Panama, various Caribbean Island nations, and a long list of other once friendly nations over the past 200 years or so.  Why would this be an exception?

Correct - read the attached, willellis, and learn.

- edited to clarify -

 

[The Bread Guy]

Fidel takes a bit of a poke:

Cuba's former leader Fidel Castro said Tuesday that unrest in Libya may be a pretext for a NATO invasion. Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega has jumped to the support of the embattled leader of the North African nation, saying he telephoned to express solidarity .... "You can agree or not with Gadhafi," Castro said. "The world has been invaded by all sorts of news ... We have to wait the necessary time to know with rigor how much is fact or lie."  But he did urge protests of something he says is planned: A U.S.-led invasion of the North African nation aimed at controlling its oil.  "The government of the United States is not concerned at all about peace in Libya and it will not hesitate to give NATO the order to invade that rich country, perhaps in a question of hours or very short days," Castro wrote ....

Reports out there that AQ's set up an "Islamic Emirate" in eastern Libya:

Al-Qaeda has set up an Islamic emirate in Derna, in eastern Libya, headed by a former U.S. prisoner at Guantanamo Bay, the country's deputy foreign minister told EU ambassadors in Tripoli.

However, residents in the city have told reporters there is no substance to these rumors, which they claim the Libyan government is sowing to "scare Europe."

"Al-Qaeda has established an emirate in Derna led by Abdelkarim al-Hasadi, a former Guantanamo detainee," Khaled Khaim said.

"They have an FM radio station and have begun to impose the burqa" (head-to-toe covering for women) and have "executed people who refuse to cooperate with them."

Khaim said Hasadi has a lieutenant, "also a member of al-Qaeda and named Kheirallah Baraassi" in al-Baida.

Derna is the capital of a province by the same name in the region of Cyrenaica, some 1,250 kilometers east of Libya's capital Tripoli. Al-Baida lies about 100 kilometers west of Derna.

Earlier, Italian Foreign Minister Francesco Franco Frattini said embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi had lost control of Cyrenaica and shared reports that an Islamic emirate had been declared there.

Speaking at a meeting in Rome organized by the Community of Sant'Egidio, a Christian organization, Frattini said here had been recent proclamations in Cyrenaica that it was now an Islamic emirate and calls to break with the West ....

 

[57Chevy]

Mass evacuations underway in Libya as EU considers sanctions
Thousands of foreign nationals are being evacuated from Libya as the situation becomes increasingly chaotic and the government loses the east of the country. Calls for sanctions are getting louder.

European and other countries were frantically trying to get their nationals out of Libya on Wednesday as events on the ground continued to escalate.
A spokesman for the European Union said member countries were in the process of evacuating some 10,000 EU citizens by air and sea.
Thousands of Tunisian and Turkish nationals were attempting to leave by Libya's western land border; many of them spoke of harrowing scenes and of being attacked by Libyan security forces.

Asian countries said Wednesday they were preparing a "mammoth" evacuation operation for more than 100,000 migrant workers.
In a newspaper interview Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini warned that as many as 300,000 refugees might try to reach Europe to escape the violence in Libya. He added that estimates that as many as 1,000 people had been killed so far "are credible."
According to the International Federation for Human Rights (IFHR) at least 640 people have been killed in Libya in protests against the regime since they started last week.

The figure is more than double the official Libyan government toll of 300 dead, and includes 275 dead in Tripoli and 230 dead in the protest epicentre in the eastern city of Benghazi, the IFHR's Souhayr Belhassen told AFP.

The Benghazi toll includes "130 soldiers who were executed by their officers in Benghazi for refusing to fire on crowds" of protesters, she said.
Belhassen, who heads the Paris-based IFHR, said their figures were based on military sources for Tripoli and on Libyan rights groups' assessments in Benghazi and elsewhere.

Gadhafi remains defiant

Meanwhile, Libyan sources said Gadhafi was barricaded in the Bab al-Azizya compound in Tripoli, and was being protected by four military brigades. But despite his defiant stance, there were signs that his grip on power was slipping.

article continues at link...

Also:
Gaddafi regime handing weapons to supporters
"They start giving guns to everybody who's saying 'I'm supporting him'," Mr Basset said.

"I've seen the guns with people who [are] very young.

"There is lots of people now - they're holding guns, they have no idea how to use even the guns.

"They've just got a Kalashnikov and they're just shooting everywhere."

more at link....

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