U.S. air giant woos Ottawa with twin deal for planes

[JasonH]

By a journalist
CanWest News Service

Province Paper (Page A21c)
Sunday, December 7th, 2003.

OTTAWA -- A U.S. aerospace giant is proposing to the federal government that Canada replace it‘s ageing hercules transports and its search-and-rescue aircraft at the same time with similar plane to save money.

Lockheed Martin is lobbying government officials to not only buy new versions of the Hercules from it‘s assembly line, but also buy a smaller aircraft that uses many of the same parts.

That smaller plane, the C-27J, is being offered from a program that would replace the military‘s ageing buffalo search-and-rescue aircraft from Comox, as well as station aircraft at other key locations across the country for such mercy missions.

The Canadian Forces want to buy up to 15 new search-and-rescue planes.

Defence Minister John McCallum says replacing the buffaloes is a priority since not only are the planes old, but the purchase of new aircraft would give Hercules transports, sometimes called in for search-and-rescue, a break from that role.

But European competitor to LockHeed is also pushing hard to win the contract and it‘s officials say they can offer a wide range of innovative financial arrangements that might be attractive to the cash-strapped Canadian Forces.

There‘s 2 more paragraphs but I‘ve typed this up from hand from the newspaper and my necks killing me heh.

 

[Slim]

Good post. Is there any other info available and what is the verdict ( if known)?

 

[holywars33]

Competition is always good. I would rather the Canadian government go for the lowest bidder (without sacrificing utility and safety) over any Canadian manufacturing/design.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I doubt they‘ll go with either as there not made in Canada and make too much sense. They‘ll probabley go with a Bombardier Lead weather balloon instead.

 

[JasonH]

Well wouldn‘t the new cargo planes be able to hold the Leapord Tanks? If so we wouldn‘t hafto phase them out.

 

[JasonH]

Oops, think I mixed up the Hercs with the AC130‘s

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

A Herc is a C130 is it not?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

See this site:
http://www.directory.net/Society/Military/Aviation/Aircraft/Airlifters/

 

[JasonH]

Heh, whoops.

What can I say, I‘m a grunt not some fly boy

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Same here, but they are our only air lift

 

[RCD]

It sounds nice. but let‘s see what other offers are out there.

www.airforce.technology.com

 

[Brock]

The Lockheed Martin offer of a mix of C-27J and C-130J aircraft to replace the 35 plus year old C-130E is a great option. a mix of 12-16 C-27J and 12-16 C-130J would fit perfectly to replace the oldest Hercs in service. They use the same engines and most of the avionics and electronics are the same so cost will be substantially reduce, furthermore it is a more cost fleet for whatever mission they need to perform. For example, for a short range fixed SAR mission why fly a large C-130 when an aircraft half the size ---see C27J--will do. Competitors to the C27J are a little cheaper initially, but in the longer term the C-27J will have a lower cost. Furthermore, the remainder of C-130 aircaft could be replaced by A400M or more C-130J, although the latter are not suited for strategic airlift.

 

[Bert]

In an earlier thread, "C-27J Spartan",
2003-10-13, in Off Topic, Ring_Mountbatten made an interesting post>

"The C-27J is based upon an Italian aircraft, the G222, the only difference is that there are new engines. The same emgines that are on the C-130J.
Since Canada is expected to ultimately acquire the C-130J the commonality between the two would be helpful for maintanance. However, the C-27J will be up against the C-295 from Spain which has one big thing going for it which is Pratt and Whitney Canada engines. They are both good aircraft and either one can do the job of the Buffalo."

and Zoomie wrote>

"The big problem that the Airforce has with aircraft such as the C-27J and J-model Hercs is those fancy propeller blades. In order for that particular design to hold up to the rigors of flight, it had to be made from composite materials. Present-day propeller blades on tactical airlifters are made from metal. If a composite blade were to be nicked by a rock, the entire propeller blade would have to be replaced. Metal blades are simply sanded smooth, and the plane keeps flying. Since these types of aircraft will be landing on gravel strip runways and the like, the chances of a rock nicking the blade is high."

(I added these posts for info because I haven‘t seen these guys on for awhile.)

 

[JasonH]

Good post bert

Thanks for the info too, good read.

 

[Brock]

Bert. You are wrong about the propellers. Composite propellers are actually easier to maintain than the old normal metal; compostite does not necessarily mean plastic. Check out some research, not sarcastic, on the CH-47D Chinook. The CH-47D model upgrade includes new composite rotor blades as do all modern helicopters, becuase they are less prone to damage and easier to maintain and last longer. The same is true for airplane propellers. Both the C-295M and C-27J have composite propellers, becuase they are much better than old style propellers.

In addition, the C-27J is not just a G222 with new engines. It is true that the C-27J aircraft built so far have been G222 aircraft that were completely and then refurbished with new engines. The C-27J are outside of the refurbished airframe totally different aircraft under the skin. The reason the "new" C-27J were built this way, becuase it cost less and offered no disadvantages to the buyer. Indeed, some of prototype C-130J models were built this way and it appears Lockheed Martin has offered to build refurbished C-130 aircraft this way too.

I do wholeheartedly agree that the C-295M‘s link with the Pratt & Whitney engines will make the competition a tight race, but unless some strange amount of politicking goes on the C-27J will win. I think Lockheed Martin Canada has a far bigger political voice than Pratt and Whitney in Canada, engines are a small cost of the overall aircraft.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

I didn‘t mean to say that the C-27J were just remanufactured G222s, just the fact that the airframe was the same. As for the C-295 what might push it forward is that is has been ataining a lot more overseas orders than the C-27J at this point and obviously the more orders from other countries drives down the price per aircraft in the end. Just on a side note the current Spanish defence attatche in Ottawa was the project manager for his Air Force‘s C-295 program. As for politics, Lockheed knows that it will eventually recieve a C-130J contract. As for politics, jobs in Canada are always a big concern for Canadians and the government, especially if those people lose their jobs because the military didn‘t purchase a locally.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

go to AeroVehicles just type that in on google or whatever there is another site for something called SKYCAT, these are new technology the smallest is capable of 45 ton load the largest is SKY CAT they have a ship capable of several hundred tons and one on the drawing of 1000ton ability these things are able to take loads so big you could haul an entire Bn in the big one. I am familiar with these, have been trying to get them for northern diamond exploration and fuel hauls my coy is called HeAT for helium assisted transport they are able to operate with no infrastructure ie: no airports etc, land on water reasonablly flat ground etc. Now if there were any brains atall in Ottawa they would see that the British Co. is run by a Canadian, build the **** things here and sell them around the world.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

Almost forgot, these ships are state of the art, yes new, but you usually bet on horses before a race not after. Testing has these in about 100km per hr but given the range capabilities and fuel all weather not to mention about one hundred times the tactical advantage of anything else, the powers to be probably will not even look. Which usually means they have not been adequately greased, as yet!
helium is not a flammable gas and Canada can produce lots of it , because they are aero dynamically designed they are no more affected by winds etc than is a Herc, you could park a couple of hercs inside on 1000ton jobby

 

[tmbluesbflat]

As for Helicopters one called the KAMOV several of which are being utilized by VAN ISLE Helicopter for logging and heavy lift, they lift 5 long or metric tonnes, they can operate nicely in Arctic conditions. I will post the specs when I locate them in my office, no secretary. These choppers are of Russian design, but the whole crew of engineers and designers etc are now here in Canada, operating and maintaining these for Van Isle. Do we hear oportunity knocking or what?

 

[Garry]

We‘ve made this mistake before, hope we don‘t do it again: buying from anywhere other than North America results in poor quality goods, lost time in parts and repairs, and tough to maintain on exercise with our main defense partner.

We‘re (Canada and the States) so far ahead of the rest of the world in aircraft design and manufacture that it boggles my mind why we even look elsewhere.