U.S. air giant woos Ottawa with twin deal for planes

[jrhume]

I don‘t know anything about the Kamov, but I did some extensive research into the newest generation of airships for a story I wrote some time back.

Forget dirigibles and blimps; these new semi-rigid airships are very different. I think we will see them deployed for strategic airlift operations into areas difficult for conventional aircraft to get into or too far from friendly bases for helicopters.

I agree with ringo_m that tactical airlift is not an option for an airship. It might take ten C-130s to carry the same number of men and supplies that could go on one airship, but a Herc can get into and out of high-threat environments and no airship (as presently constructed) could do that.

However, semi-rigid airships have great promise. I think we will see extensive utilization of them in both civilian circles (already being done for heavy lift of all sorts) and for military uses.

Stay tuned. The technology is fantastic.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I have spoken to the boys that fly Sea Kings and they would rather stay with the Sea King then fly any Russian stuff. Sorry TM I think your out to lunch saying what our air crews would like to fly...

 

[Korus]

I think we should replace the C7 with the AK-74.
(ducks)

(Ok, before someone flips out at that, I‘m trying to make it as painstakingly obvious as possible that that was SARCASM)

 

[tmbluesbflat]

I am not talking Force Aircrews but senior civilian most of whom were once military and flew Sea Kings and everything in the book. Your "BOYS" that fly for the military are probably very young and have not had the thousands of hours that these chaps have, both military and civilian.
Also I was refering to semi rigid airships as noted in a previous post. Currently being manifactured in Great Britain a 30 tonne is operating and a 220 is slated for delivery next year and a 1000 tonne is to start building this year. Go to google then type Skycat, and check out the specs

 

[Korus]

Allrighty, I‘ve actually gone ahead and done some research (what a concept) on the "Kamov"
First, Kamov is a company name, not a helicopter, so lets try and talk specifics.

The stats on the Kamov made choppers used in logging in Canada...
http://www.aeroworldnet.com/6tw02249.htm

They are KA-32s, and KA-32s are the transport version of the KA-27/29

KA-32 Helix:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-29.htm

KA-32A Helix:
http://www.bearcraft-online.com/museum/museum.htm?mid=30
According to this one, it can carry 13 passengers, and other websites state that as well.

Also note that it was first developed in the mid-70‘s.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Again you assume too much TM as the people I talk to are majors and senior captains that have been in for 12 plus years and have 1000s of hours on the Sea King airframe.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

Old Guy, I do not dispute that that the airship has a lot of potential, however, due to it‘s speed it just cannot be used as a stategic airlift platform. When outsize equipment is needed quickly it would just take too long to get there. That is why I have been saying that the most logical use for them is to supplement current and future sealift capabilities. They are faster than ships obviously, but are just as vulnerable to very basic threats. I have also pointed, especially in the US case, that the Navy has always operated airships. To unload an airship that big you would also need a area the size of a port just to be able to not turn the entire process into a logistical nightmare.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

The point is it can carry outsized equipment lost of it, it can put down anyplace needed complete with shops spares and other support. It is impervious to small arms fire, kevlar low pressure shock absorbing and can otherwise sustain major damage and still function. The fact that it is roll on roll off front and rear loading makes it‘s strategic advantage even better. At 100kph it is not terribly fast but it is quicker than any ground transport, since your not restricted to roads and mountains etc. That they require no infrastructure, no runways no tarmac, they can land on water, ice and snow, or a farmers field, they can vertical lift, hover etc I would think that an infantry battalion and it‘s vehicles etc could be loaded in about thirty minutes and unloaded as quickly, this is however just a guess, but I do have some experience at expiditing. I think my guess would hold up!

 

[tmbluesbflat]

I don‘t think I assume to much, most of the people I‘m refering to have thousands of hour on a variety of craft, their experience is not limited to one or two craft the military may have. One chap I have flown with here on the west coast (The most treacherous flying conditions) is 64 and has flown just about everything that can fly. His impression was that the Kamov was ten years ahead of anything in anybodies bag of tricks. The other point he made was this, with all the Yank engineers and mechanics looking things over, that it would not take long for the American Choppers to have a few new features.

 

[jrhume]

Mr. tmbluesflat,

You‘re so caught up in the enthusiasm for semi-rigid airships that you‘re forgetting to apply common sense.

No infrastructure? Any complex machine will require service and support. The thing has engines, electronics, control systems, etc. It will need an infrastructure.

No hard surfaced landing area? While it‘s true that airships can operate in unimproved areas, the fact is that the most efficient loading and unloading will happen on improved surfaces. Helos can operate practically anywhere, but I can tell you that any movement of troops and supplies is best done from a hard surface. I was in Vietnam with a Chinook company, so I have a little experience at that sort of thing.

The other issue is one of exposure. Even in fairly low-risk environments a commanding officer will be reluctant to load an entire unit in one airship. For example, a Marine Amphibious Unit is carried aboard a helo/troop carrier built for that purpose, but that ship never goes in harms way without a powerful escort. A semi-rigid airship carrying a battalion of troops and equipment would have to be escorted with conventional aircraft and armed helos. It‘s not as simple as just loading everyone on board and heading off for your destination.

I am very interested in semi-rigid airships and believe they offer advantages we can only imagine at this point. But, I also understand that melding that technology with existing transport is not easy.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

Old Guy these are all very good points, however, from the debate I have been having this gentleman over airships, I am sure that the logic you have provided to the conversation will fall upon deaf ears. I can only hope that your points will help to enforce the point that these machines do have logistical needs and simply cannot put down in a convienent empty space and unload just like that. As well I do hope that he does not respond that they have kevlar protection and that will save it from foes, as he tried to point out to me that they might need some sort of escort and protection. Thank you for your insight into this topic.

 

[jrhume]

Mr. Ringo_m,

I‘m not so sure logic always falls on deaf ears. Bureaucrats often ignore objective reality until they manage to get some poor saps killed. Then, they often survive to plague future generations of soldiers by writing books about the ‘lessons‘ they learned by way of other people‘s blood.

Semi-rigid airships will likely make an appearance in US forces before long. I hope they get a fair trial, in spite of bureaucrats.

In this case, I think whatever tempests rise up on these pages will have little practical effect on the decision of what transport Canada ought to buy. I lean toward the C-130/C-29 combo myself, but that‘s only because they are proven platforms.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

Quite correct about the technology and the intigration of same. But think of this, load battalion in Edmonton off load in Afgahnistan three days later, rested, fed, and ready to go! This is what the US is thinking, according to test pilot Bob Fowler of AreoCat of Santa Maria California. He has been in on the development of these craft from the beginning!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Airship to keep eye on Mideast


By Abraham Rabinovich
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


JERUSALEM â ” Israel has begun development of a 200-yard-long airship that would remain stationed at almost 70,000 feet above Earth for years and permit tracking of aircraft and missile firings as far as 600 miles away, a distance covering most of the Arab world.
"It will be an airship the size of a football field, nothing like it in the world," engineer Avi Baum told the Ha‘aretz newspaper. Mr. Baum is head of research for the Malam branch of Israel Aircraft Industries.
In addition to its military purposes, the airship, which is yet to be named, would permit a wide range of civilian uses. Mr. Baum said it could relay TV and radio signals, provide broadband Internet, monitor ground and air traffic and aid in weather forecasting. It also could serve as a communications transponder linking ground stations with planes and satellites.
The unmanned airship, which would be 60 yards wide, could stay aloft for up to three years and could shift its position at the order of its ground station. It could be brought down to Earth at will for refitting and be sent back into the atmosphere.
The craft would be divided into two compartments, one containing air and one containing helium. On the ground, the helium would be compressed, making it heavier than air. For liftoff, the helium would be released gradually to fill the air pocket.
A steering mechanism based on a rear propeller controlled by an electric motor would keep the craft in geostationary position. Solar panels would provide a continual supply of energy. Current specifications envision a craft made of flexible, lightweight polymers that would weigh 10 tons and be capable of carrying payloads of 1.9 tons.
"We thought of developing something less expensive than satellites," Mr. Baum said. The proposed craft would be positioned between the altitudes of planes and space satellites.
The cost of the project is estimated at $100 million to $150 million, and the company is seeking an international partner. Lockheed Martin is reportedly at work on a similar concept and is exploring a joint project with Malam. Defense Ministry officials said a prototype could be operational in four years. Although Malam is not the first to think about such airships, it is believed to be the first to have resolved the problem of keeping the craft in geostationary position, serving as an airborne watchtower.