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U.S. envoy dismisses Harper's Arctic plan

"but the Australians do not see themselves operating at such great distances as we need to."

- Correct.  They merely have to remain on station off the coast of Australia and torpedo the Indonesian invasion fleet when it appears.  After they run out of torpedos or Marmite, they beach the boats on the coast, each man grabs an Austen or an Owen, and they disperse into the jungle. 

;D

Tom
 
TCBF said:
"but the Australians do not see themselves operating at such great distances as we need to."

- Correct.  They merely have to remain on station off the coast of Australia and torpedo the Indonesian invasion fleet when it appears.  After they run out of torpedos or Marmite, they beach the boats on the coast, each man grabs an Austen or an Owen, and they disperse into the jungle. 

;D

Tom

Assuming that their submarines can actually get a lock on Indonesian fleet and not suffer a computer glitch...  ;D
If they do suffer a computer glitch, ram the Indonesian fleet... lol...
 
Other points in defending the Arctic within the Conservative Platform included building an "Arctic Training Centre" at Cambridge Bay, and increasing the number of Canadian Rangers. Perhaps not as effective at curtailing international shipping as a nuclear sub, but 9/10, at full speed, a snowmobile will skip over water. Furthermore, we already have a deepwater port at Churchill, though it may need some sprucing up after being left to rust since the '70s.
 
" Furthermore, we already have a deepwater port at Churchill, though it may need some sprucing up after being left to rust since the '70s."

- The rail link to Churchill is a US line, IIRC.  The deep water port is a hard sell, as the deep water is covered in deep ice most of the year.  Global warming? Bring it on!  During the short season it is open, a bit of wheat actually moves through there.  Cheaper to rail it to the Twin Cities, then barge it down the Mississippi, I bet.

Tom
 
Do we really have anything to worry about?  ;D
http://wdl.lug.ro/funny/lighthouse.wmv
I know its old...but its still funny.
 
Wouldn't a monitoring task be better served by remote sensors? And perhaps open distribution of all contact data on detected vessels, partly to prove were getting it, partly as a deterrent because others may not want that data in the open.

I think this may be the most effective way of exerting sovereignty  - just remove the cloak from the area and announce to all and sundry what vessels of all nationalities are operating in those waters.  That together with the breakers supplying escort to any surface vessels transiting those waters for safety reasons would go a long way to establishing Canada's claims.  The submarine community seems to value their anonymity and having people write cheques for services goes a long way to deciding whether or not they think you own the area.

By the way, reference the northern deep water port - the Liberals were also planning on sinking some serious coin into a northern port. Their choice was Bathurst Inlet on the mainland just across the Coronation Gulf from Cambridge Bay on Victoria Island.    That stretch of water between the Island and the Mainland is one of the choke-points on the Northwest Passage.
 
Hense my post about the SOSUS lines earlier, but, you are an inspiration:  The guvmint should then pay the weather network (Canada's fav pass time - the  weather) to do an arctic weather report ('Every 19 after the hour') that also shows the position of EVERY vessel in the Cdn Arctic Archipelago "And moving through that storm is the SS Van Hieneken - a Dutch cruise ship, the SS Backdoormanis, a Greek bulk carrier, and the USS Nukeyasucker - a ballistic missle submarine..."

;D

Am I not a cheap propagandist, or what?

Modest, too.

Tom
 
George
As Army stated, the new German subs are just as good as the Nukes. I watch a domc about them. The Germans do make good subs. They pay to go through the Suez, why now pay for the NWP? We have to stand firm. They say no one is up there. But there are Alaska that are the same. A friend of mine, is posted to NORAD NorCom.
REMEMBER TRUE NORTH STRONG and FREE.
 
Dave

As you and I both know, there are people up there.  Pond Inlet and a few other communities are at the north end of Baffin Island.  You and I have both done patrols with the Rangers up there.  Miles and miles of rock, tundra, snow and ice and of course caribou.  Great place for Tourists to fish for Arctic Char.   ;D

Open up a few long airstrips and improve the Port facilities and make it a Port of Entry for new immigrants (acclimatization).   ;D  More activity (air and sea) may knock the price of a can of pop down to near a dollar.   ;D
 
Edward Campbell said:
Harper couldn’t have asked for anything better if he had planted this story himself.

Having a dispute with the USA is always popular in Canada.

Our Arctic claims are weak but we really must pursue them.

It looks like Harper did plant it and, according to John Ibbitson in today's Globe and Mail for the same reasons Paul Martin slagged the US: to court the favour of the Canadian anti-American fringe, especially the part that equates Harper's Tories with George W. Bush's Republicans.

Here is Ibbitson's piece, reproduced in accordance with the fair dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060127.IBBITSON27/TPStory
New PM's icy comments over envoy could backfire
By JOHN IBBITSON

Friday, January 27, 2006
Posted at 8:19 AM EST

David Wilkins must feel like packing his bags and going home.

Once again, the beleaguered American ambassador has become the lightning rod for gratuitous criticism from the Canadian government -- in this case, the incoming Conservative one of prime-minister-designate Stephen Harper.

Mr. Harper went out of his way yesterday to repudiate some utterly innocuous remarks that Mr. Wilkins offered Wednesday at a forum on Canada-U.S. relations at the University of Western Ontario.

At that forum, my colleague Jeffrey Simpson raised the issue of Arctic sovereignty, pointing out that the Conservative campaign platform pledged to defend Canada's claim to all the waters of the Arctic archipelago by increasing our military presence there.

Mr. Wilkins, who has been desperately trying to keep himself out of the news, carefully responded that both sides had agreed to disagree on the issue for decades, and that many countries don't recognize Canada's claim of sovereignty over Arctic waters. But "you know, this is a situation where there's no reason to create a problem that doesn't exist," he said.

"There's no reason to say there's a problem that's occurring and we've got to do something about it."

Stephen Harper took these innocent words and contorted them into An Incident. To bemused reporters, he declared (without having been asked) that Canada would defend its Arctic interests, no matter what Mr. Wilkins said. "It is the Canadian people we get our mandate from, not the ambassador of the United States," he declared.

You can just imagine Mr. Wilkins, back at the embassy, sputtering: "But . . . but . . . but I didn't!"

There can be no conceivable reason for Mr. Harper's attack other than to defuse Liberal accusations during the election campaign that the Conservatives were secretly controlled by American interests, to which they would sell the country out unless stopped.

Mr. Harper's outburst was intended to reassure Canadians that he was his own man. All he really succeeded in proving, however, was that he could be as petty, defensive and needlessly insulting as Paul Martin, given the chance.

On top of everything else, Mr. Harper's comments were counterproductive. The new prime minister is going to need American co-operation on a more important and politically sensitive issue than Arctic sovereignty. The Conservatives have pledged to violate international law by unilaterally extending Canada's 200-mile limit off the East Coast to the edge of the continental shelf, including the nose and tail of the Grand Banks and the Flemish Cap.

Canada has good reason to take this action -- overfishing of these areas by foreign trawlers is devastating what little is left of the Grand Banks fishery, and the North Atlantic Fisheries Organization has been useless at policing abuse.

But however environmentally sound the measure may be, the Canadian government will be excoriated by other nations. We will face defiance and sanctions. The first time a Canadian frigate forces a Portuguese trawler into port, even though that trawler is in what everyone else agrees is international waters, there will be hell to pay.

During the inevitable protests, Canada will seek to minimize condemnation from its allies. Go ahead and criticize us, diplomats will quietly tell London and Paris and, especially, Washington. Just don't confront us.

At such a time the Canadian government will need all of the diplomatic capital it can accumulate. Success or failure could hinge on convincing the Americans to go no further than sending a sharp note of protest.

So how does Mr. Harper think the American ambassador in Ottawa will respond, when we ask this very large favour? Will he tell us that it's all right, this is another one of those issues on which Canada and the United States will simply agree to disagree?

Or will he treat Mr. Harper the way Mr. Harper just treated him?

© Copyright 2006 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
At that forum, my colleague Jeffrey Simpson raised the issue of Arctic sovereignty, pointing out that the Conservative campaign platform pledged to defend Canada's claim to all the waters of the Arctic archipelago by increasing our military presence there.
 

Mr. Wilkins, who has been desperately trying to keep himself out of the news, carefully responded that both sides had agreed to disagree on the issue for decades, and that many countries don't recognize Canada's claim of sovereignty over Arctic waters. But "you know, this is a situation where there's no reason to create a problem that doesn't exist," he said.

"There's no reason to say there's a problem that's occurring and we've got to do something about it."

U.S. envoy dismisses Harper's Arctic plan
Last Updated Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:09:54 EST
CBC News

The United States opposes a plan by prime minister-designate Stephen Harper to deploy military icebreakers in the Arctic in order to assert Canadian sovereignty, says the U.S. ambassador to Canada.

"The United States defends its sovereignty; the Canadian government will defend our sovereignty," he said.

"It is the Canadian people that we get our mandate from, not the ambassador of the United States."

Stephen Harper took these innocent words and contorted them into An Incident. To bemused reporters, he declared (without having been asked) that Canada would defend its Arctic interests, no matter what Mr. Wilkins said.

So let me understand this:

Jeffrey Simpson of the Globe and Mail (I have my own biases when thinking of him) asks a question of the Ambassador about Canadian Policy.

The Ambassador responds with a statement about standing US policy and says he doesn't want to see this made into an incident.

CBC picks up the Ambassador's comments with an inflammatory headline and no indication that the matter was raised by a journalist.

Harper moves to squelch incident by a simple statement of Canada's intent.

John Ibbitson of the Globe and Mail accuses Harper of manufacturing an incident.


What exactly are the roles of the Globe's Simpson and Ibbitson and the CBC in all of this?


I was inclined to think that this was manufactured by Harper because it was such a conveniently timed soft ball.  But from where I sit now it seems to me that both Wilkins and Harper were responding to a set up by the "Press" to see where the Canada/US relation stands.

As to the question of Harper bringing it up without being asked - the question was out there because of the CBC's article.  Harper was probably moving to squelch any further speculation.  Whether he was successful was another matter.  But it certainly doesn't seem to me that Harper was the instigator here.






 
TCBF said:
" Furthermore, we already have a deepwater port at Churchill, though it may need some sprucing up after being left to rust since the '70s."

- The rail link to Churchill is a US line, IIRC.  The deep water port is a hard sell, as the deep water is covered in deep ice most of the year.  Global warming? Bring it on!  During the short season it is open, a bit of wheat actually moves through there.  Cheaper to rail it to the Twin Cities, then barge it down the Mississippi, I bet.

Tom

The Chinese are looking into building a twin track up to Churchill. 

The north could use the economic boost that is one thing for sure.


edited due to my horrific grammar.
 
Further to this discussion there is this article, also from the Globe and Mail today.  It noted that a Russian ice-breaker is supplying cruises through the Northwest Passage at $10,000 per time.  It is not clear at this time whether they are asking permission or whether, like many Russian ice-breakers, it is nuclear powered.

Speaking in late 2004, former U.S. ambassador Paul Cellucci hinted the United States may be willing to recognize Canada's claims to the Northwest Passage if it helps U.S. security.

"We are looking at everything through the terrorism prism," he said. "Our top priority is to stop the terrorists. So perhaps when this is brought to the table again, we may have to take another look."

Mr. Byers said he viewed the comments as an invitation from the U.S. State Department to renegotiate the issue.

"I think [Mr. Harper's] position actually lines up with the long-term interests of the United States," he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060127/REALITY27/TPNational
 
Gee, I sure am convinced that Harper isn't in the pocket of the Yanks by some tough-talking over a relatively innocuous issue. Good on him for the policy, but I don't think he's fooling anyone with the "raawr, I'm not owned by the US, look at me tell them what's what" bit.

TCBF said:
Is the NW passage not more than 24 NM across at it's narrow point?  I think the para we need is the one dealing with inland waters of archipelagos.

One thing for sure, if we claim to own it, we have to prove - not just talk about it, but prove - that we CAN militarily control it.

Might be too late.

Tom

The waters between islands of archipelagic states like Indonesia are considered internal waters. A 24 NM claim means we can rightfully claim any passage which has a 48NM width (between islands) or less, since each island projects a 24NM boundary. If you look at any scale map of the Arctic Archipelago, you'll see that we can easily cut it off since there's no route one can take which doesn't take them within 24 NM of an island. The gap between Devon and Baffin Islands would be the best bet, but it's well under 48NM wide.

Big suprise that the US doesn't like our claim - next they'll be telling us that James Bay isn't ours either. Screw 'em. Any half-wit (even south of the 49th) can see that the waters between those islands are ours by virtue of our ownership of the archipelago.

 
Glorified Ape said:
Big suprise that the US doesn't like our claim - next they'll be telling us that James Bay isn't ours either. Screw 'em. Any half-wit (even south of the 49th) can see that the waters between those islands are ours by virtue of our ownership of the archipelago.

Yes, but it takes a full-wit to realize that we have to be able to ENFORCE our claims, which is why some people are coming up short.

You'll also note that the US is hardly the only country that doesn't reckognize our claims.  In fact, I'm pretty sure we're the only ones who DO reckognize it.  The rest either disagree or haven't even thought about it yet.
 
Recce41 said:
George
As Army stated, the new German subs are just as good as the Nukes. I watch a domc about them. The Germans do make good subs. They pay to go through the Suez, why now pay for the NWP? We have to stand firm. They say no one is up there. But there are Alaska that are the same. A friend of mine, is posted to NORAD NorCom.
REMEMBER TRUE NORTH STRONG and FREE.

The Germans better make good submarines after how much damage they did to us and the Allies during World War II! 14.5 million gross tonnage of merchant ships alone during the Battle of the Atlantic...
 
"the Chinese are looking into building a twin track up to Churchill.  "


Uhh?? Never heard anything about this and why would the Chinese build anything up there....?

Hope I didnt just walk into a joke!!!

 
Bobbyoreo said:
"the Chinese are looking into building a twin track up to Churchill.  "


Uhh?? Never heard anything about this and why would the Chinese build anything up there....?

Hope I didnt just walk into a joke!!!

The same reason why the Chinese built a Maglev train in Shanghai connecting the city to the airport... because they can.
 
The same reason why the Chinese built a Maglev train in Shanghai connecting the city to the airport... because they can.



Again....Why would and how could they build in Canada?
 
If I am not mistaken they are also investing in Alberta tar sands projects, a pipeline to Prince Rupert and upgrading Prince Rupert port facilities.

They are acting like any other conglomerate with capital available to address their needs. They are investing where opportunity presents itself.

Now the fact that they are not like any other conglomerate, acting out of diverse interests, but a government of a nation-state.....now that's another matter.
 
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