U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread
- Thread starter Devlin
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Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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yes, lets all feel bad for him being so far away from his family. It must be pretty hard on him, not like those guys in iraq 8000 miles away from their families, dying.
I couldn't really care less about these guys. I think my biggest concern is if this guy is littering in Canada, that would REALLY piss me off.
He doesn't agree with the war in iraq, big deal. Him standing up for his belief that the war is wrong is just as valid as us saying the war is right. Being a deserter, well he should go to jail for that and do his time, plain and simple. Cowardly? well I think so. If your that against the war sit it out in jail, i have no problem with that.
What i'm most embarassed about that site is the hatemail the guy has got.
http://www.jeremyhinzman.net/negative.html
What a bunch of morons. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you, im going to pay your prison cell mate to rape you, i hope you and your family die, I'm 52 years old and I would love to confront you with a hammer.. ".
It's embarassing and it makes people look like war mongers. Thats just stupid. I'm certain he only put the worst of the worst hatemail. I'm going to write him a letter about my views and opinions and challange him to put it on the web page and see what he does.
I noticed both web sites have an option to donate. Nothing like getting a little cash on the side.
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Ghost, those guys writing the hatemail are just idiots, plain and simple. No one who says that sort of stuff deserves any credibility. I sent the pair of these guys a letter doing the same thing as you, challenging their actions and views as a citizen in the very country they are hiding. It is my right to speak up as they want to remain here and build live here in my country, use our system to protect themselves.
Just thoughts
Cheers
Just thoughts
Cheers
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I was watching the BBC World news when they started talking about American forces deserters living in Canada to escape being sent to Afghanistan or Iraq, or back to Afghanistan or Iraq. What do you guys think about this?
I was also wondering, are all the personnel overseas there voluntarily?
I was also wondering, are all the personnel overseas there voluntarily?
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I think that these deserters should be repatriated to the US as per NATO statute of forces agreements which Canada and the US both participate in.
Whether or not you agree with the War in Afghanistan or Iraq, you've got to realize that these deserters volunteered to join the US Armed Forces and thereby made a concious decision to serve despite their political or personal convictions.
Whether or not you agree with the War in Afghanistan or Iraq, you've got to realize that these deserters volunteered to join the US Armed Forces and thereby made a concious decision to serve despite their political or personal convictions.
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Before our US friends climb on us for a repeat of the Vietnam asylum policy, I think we need to put this into perspective. To the best of my knowledge, not one single US deserter has yet been granted "refugee" status in Canada because they do not want to serve in Iraq/Afghanistan/etc. (I stand ready to be corrected...) A number have certainly attracted some media attention, but my sense is that it is nothing near the flow that happened in the 1960's and early 1970's. Simply because Immigration "considers" a case or a request does not mean it will be granted in favour of the applicant, especially one who voluntarily joined the Armed Forces of a friendly democratic nation, took the paycheque as long as the going was good, but then skipped when things got nasty. If apprehended by US authorities they will be tried under the Unified Code of Military Justice, probably by Court Martial, in a system not so different from our own Code of Service Discipline (although in Canadian CMs the accused can hire their own lawyers if they wish, and the trial is open to the public-I'm not sure about the provisions of the UCMJ...). They will not be tortured or persecuted (more than any criminal is "persecuted"...) Pack these people up and ship them to the border ASAP, or better yet turn them away at the border. Cheers.
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Mandal I would recommend changing your subject title as its very misleading as it alludes to official policy.
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Key words: Volunteer Army.
As I understand, claiming concsientius objector status is not difficult if the reasons are valid. They must have known signing on to the American army that they would be considered for active duty.
It's hard to empathize at all.
Desertion is not a small crime either, penalties for it are stiff, always have been.
If they're dishonorably discharged, fined and imprisoned; They're A)Doing better off than a deserter would have done historically and B)Doing better off then the comrades they've chosen to desert are doing.
Ship em home.
As I understand, claiming concsientius objector status is not difficult if the reasons are valid. They must have known signing on to the American army that they would be considered for active duty.
It's hard to empathize at all.
Desertion is not a small crime either, penalties for it are stiff, always have been.
If they're dishonorably discharged, fined and imprisoned; They're A)Doing better off than a deserter would have done historically and B)Doing better off then the comrades they've chosen to desert are doing.
Ship em home.
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Ex-Dragoon said:
What would you suggest?
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Well look at your title: Canada considering to allow US forces deserters to claim refugee status here.
Was the BBC saying that the Goverment of Canada plans or is considering allowing the deserters to stay here?
Was the BBC saying that the Goverment of Canada plans or is considering allowing the deserters to stay here?
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ahh yes, but there was not enough space. I thought it would have been understood as teh government of Canada?
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I know all refugee claimamnts are reviewed but I was not aware that the Liberals were considering allowing deserters blanket amnesty and to stay in Canada which is what I am gathering from your post.
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That's what I gathered from the BBC report. I think that's what it is about.
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I say send 'em packing. Desertion is desertion. IMHO Canada would kick and scream to have a Canadian soldier returned to them if one went sideways wouldn't they?
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Quote from PBI:
Simply because Immigration "considers" a case or a request does not mean it will be granted in favour of the applicant, especially one who voluntarily joined the Armed Forces of a friendly democratic nation, took the paycheque as long as the going was good, but then skipped when things got nasty.
PBI: My emphasis on the "nasty" relates to this portion of Matt's post:
Before I go any further - Matt: you have my attention at the above reference: Can you send or post more information?
Cheers ...
Simply because Immigration "considers" a case or a request does not mean it will be granted in favour of the applicant, especially one who voluntarily joined the Armed Forces of a friendly democratic nation, took the paycheque as long as the going was good, but then skipped when things got nasty.
PBI: My emphasis on the "nasty" relates to this portion of Matt's post:
Matt_Fisher said:
Before I go any further - Matt: you have my attention at the above reference: Can you send or post more information?
Cheers ...
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http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1102444861288_51?hub=Canada
CTV.ca News Staff
American war dodger Jeremy Hinzman, who is seeking political refugee status in Canada, says he fled the U.S. military because he didn't want to fight a "criminal war" in Iraq.
He told a hearing Tuesday that the U.S. military considered all Arabs in the Middle East to be terrorists and they were to be eliminated.
"We were referring to these people as savages,'' Hinzman testified, adding he could not in good conscience serve in Iraq.
"This was a criminal war,'' he said. "Any act of violence in an unjustified conflict is an atrocity.''
During the three-day hearing, Hinzman, 26, will be trying to convince the board that his life will be in danger if he returns home. If he does not obtain refugee status, he could be deported to the United States and prosecuted as a deserter.
While U.S. deserters often get about a year in jail, Hinzman said he believes he would be treated more harshly because of his views on the Iraq war.
"I would be prosecuted for acting upon a political belief ... for refusing to do something that was wrong," he told the hearing.
Senior Canadian immigration officials have ruled that whether the war is illegal is irrelevant in Hinzman's case, but that continues to play a part in his testimony.
If Hinzman is granted refugee status, some critics have said it could open the door for even more U.S. deserters to arrive in Canada.
Conservative MP Randy White says Hinzman's case is an example of someone "evading prosecution, and not persecution."
Hinzman joined the army in 2000 and trained as a paratrooper. He said he signed up at his father's urging because it would allow him to receive a university education, adding that he wanted to study law, medicine or become a teacher.
But he says his thinking changed after going through extensive combat training.
"When we marched, we chanted 'Trained to kill and kill we will'," Hinzman told the board Monday. "I remember becoming hoarse from shouting this ... it really hit me. I learned I have a big inhibition about taking human life."
By August 2002, the practising Buddhist applied to be a conscientious objector -- meaning his personal beliefs prevented him from participating in war.
"I signed up to defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic -- not to carry out acts of aggression," Hinzman was quoted as saying earlier this year.
His application was delayed and he was sent to Afghanistan but served in a non-combat post. His application was turned down while he was serving there.
When he got his orders to ship out to Iraq in late 2003, he fled his North Carolina base and moved to Canada with his wife and toddler son. His wife is also seeking asylum.
The U.S. army has declared him AWOL: absent without leave.
Deserters from countries with compulsory military service have been granted refugee status in Canada. But this case is different, since Hinzman volunteered for military service.
Another U.S. deserter, Brandon Hughey, 19, is also seeking refugee status here. He slipped past military police in Texas in March, a day before his unit was scheduled to go to Iraq.
Hughey will get his refugee hearing after Hinzman's case is complete.
With files from CFTO's John Musselman and The Canadian Press
CTV.ca News Staff
American war dodger Jeremy Hinzman, who is seeking political refugee status in Canada, says he fled the U.S. military because he didn't want to fight a "criminal war" in Iraq.
He told a hearing Tuesday that the U.S. military considered all Arabs in the Middle East to be terrorists and they were to be eliminated.
"We were referring to these people as savages,'' Hinzman testified, adding he could not in good conscience serve in Iraq.
"This was a criminal war,'' he said. "Any act of violence in an unjustified conflict is an atrocity.''
During the three-day hearing, Hinzman, 26, will be trying to convince the board that his life will be in danger if he returns home. If he does not obtain refugee status, he could be deported to the United States and prosecuted as a deserter.
While U.S. deserters often get about a year in jail, Hinzman said he believes he would be treated more harshly because of his views on the Iraq war.
"I would be prosecuted for acting upon a political belief ... for refusing to do something that was wrong," he told the hearing.
Senior Canadian immigration officials have ruled that whether the war is illegal is irrelevant in Hinzman's case, but that continues to play a part in his testimony.
If Hinzman is granted refugee status, some critics have said it could open the door for even more U.S. deserters to arrive in Canada.
Conservative MP Randy White says Hinzman's case is an example of someone "evading prosecution, and not persecution."
Hinzman joined the army in 2000 and trained as a paratrooper. He said he signed up at his father's urging because it would allow him to receive a university education, adding that he wanted to study law, medicine or become a teacher.
But he says his thinking changed after going through extensive combat training.
"When we marched, we chanted 'Trained to kill and kill we will'," Hinzman told the board Monday. "I remember becoming hoarse from shouting this ... it really hit me. I learned I have a big inhibition about taking human life."
By August 2002, the practising Buddhist applied to be a conscientious objector -- meaning his personal beliefs prevented him from participating in war.
"I signed up to defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic -- not to carry out acts of aggression," Hinzman was quoted as saying earlier this year.
His application was delayed and he was sent to Afghanistan but served in a non-combat post. His application was turned down while he was serving there.
When he got his orders to ship out to Iraq in late 2003, he fled his North Carolina base and moved to Canada with his wife and toddler son. His wife is also seeking asylum.
The U.S. army has declared him AWOL: absent without leave.
Deserters from countries with compulsory military service have been granted refugee status in Canada. But this case is different, since Hinzman volunteered for military service.
Another U.S. deserter, Brandon Hughey, 19, is also seeking refugee status here. He slipped past military police in Texas in March, a day before his unit was scheduled to go to Iraq.
Hughey will get his refugee hearing after Hinzman's case is complete.
With files from CFTO's John Musselman and The Canadian Press
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http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2004/12/08/772461.html
Deserter is not a draft dodger
By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun
While one can't guess what the refugee board will rule, from the evidence it's hard to conclude that Jeremy Hinzman deserted from the U.S. army for any reason other than he was scared.
This isn't to suggest he was a coward, because it takes a certain kind of courage to leave your country and claim refugee status rather than go to a dangerous area.
And it's not a comfortable feeling knowing that most of your countrymen will view you with disdain -- as will many Canadians -- if the refugee board accepts you as a "refugee" from what Hinzman claims is an "illegal war" in Iraq.
There's a certain amount of irony in this and other desertion cases, when Canada is in the midst of a campaign to raise money to buy the Victoria Cross won by Cpl. Fred Topham in World War II, that's being sold by his late wife's family.
Topham and his comrades of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion were undoubtedly scared in 1945 when they parachuted over the Rhine and Toppy won his VC -- the only VC won in the Sixth British Airborne Division to which Toppy's unit was attached.
The 1st Paras did more fighting in Northwest Europe than any other Canadian unit.
Hinzman was a paratrooper, too -- and deserted the U.S. 82nd Airborne on the eve of it being sent to Iraq.
Hinzman says the idea of killing people is repugnant to him, and that his application to be a conscientious objector was rejected.
One wonders why a conscientious objector would join the army.
Topham and his fellow soldiers didn't like killing either, but they did their duty.
In fact, Topham didn't kill -- he was a medic who repeatedly put his life at risk saving the wounded under fire.
Perhaps it isn't fair to compare the two men, but the question begs: Why did Hinzman join a volunteer army if he wasn't prepared to do what soldiers do, which is fight an enemy?
He wasn't drafted, he enlisted in early 2001. His claim that the war against Saddam Hussein was "illegal" rings hollow.
That's not a soldier's role to decide.
And the Vietnam situation doesn't apply either. During Vietnam America had the draft -- a conscript army.
Many Americans who didn't want to go to Vietnam or be in the military, came to Canada.
Some Canadian citizens now helping U.S. deserters were once Vietnam draft dodgers.
Even then, a draft dodger was different from a deserter -- a much more serious offence.
Most people don't have much use for deserters -- especially from a volunteer army, and before they've been shot at. A guy who deserts because he's been in combat too long, is different from someone who deserts because he doesn't want to risk combat.
Hinzman says he joined the army to get an education (war is an "education" although not the sort he wants).
His interest in Buddhism conflicts with his interest in the military, as does his status as a new parent, plus his sudden concern about the legality of wars.
As Hinzman says, he had no great "epiphany" -- just a growing dislike for the prospect of war.
It reached a peak when he was due to leave for Iraq.
Up to then, he'd apparently been an adequate soldier, passing all the training tests required.
Most likely is that fear dominated his psyche and after the outrage of 9/11, he realized soldiering wasn't for him.
So he fled to Canada.
I think Canada should send him home to deal with the consequences of his decisions.
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Deserter is not a draft dodger
By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun
While one can't guess what the refugee board will rule, from the evidence it's hard to conclude that Jeremy Hinzman deserted from the U.S. army for any reason other than he was scared.
This isn't to suggest he was a coward, because it takes a certain kind of courage to leave your country and claim refugee status rather than go to a dangerous area.
And it's not a comfortable feeling knowing that most of your countrymen will view you with disdain -- as will many Canadians -- if the refugee board accepts you as a "refugee" from what Hinzman claims is an "illegal war" in Iraq.
There's a certain amount of irony in this and other desertion cases, when Canada is in the midst of a campaign to raise money to buy the Victoria Cross won by Cpl. Fred Topham in World War II, that's being sold by his late wife's family.
Topham and his comrades of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion were undoubtedly scared in 1945 when they parachuted over the Rhine and Toppy won his VC -- the only VC won in the Sixth British Airborne Division to which Toppy's unit was attached.
The 1st Paras did more fighting in Northwest Europe than any other Canadian unit.
Hinzman was a paratrooper, too -- and deserted the U.S. 82nd Airborne on the eve of it being sent to Iraq.
Hinzman says the idea of killing people is repugnant to him, and that his application to be a conscientious objector was rejected.
One wonders why a conscientious objector would join the army.
Topham and his fellow soldiers didn't like killing either, but they did their duty.
In fact, Topham didn't kill -- he was a medic who repeatedly put his life at risk saving the wounded under fire.
Perhaps it isn't fair to compare the two men, but the question begs: Why did Hinzman join a volunteer army if he wasn't prepared to do what soldiers do, which is fight an enemy?
He wasn't drafted, he enlisted in early 2001. His claim that the war against Saddam Hussein was "illegal" rings hollow.
That's not a soldier's role to decide.
And the Vietnam situation doesn't apply either. During Vietnam America had the draft -- a conscript army.
Many Americans who didn't want to go to Vietnam or be in the military, came to Canada.
Some Canadian citizens now helping U.S. deserters were once Vietnam draft dodgers.
Even then, a draft dodger was different from a deserter -- a much more serious offence.
Most people don't have much use for deserters -- especially from a volunteer army, and before they've been shot at. A guy who deserts because he's been in combat too long, is different from someone who deserts because he doesn't want to risk combat.
Hinzman says he joined the army to get an education (war is an "education" although not the sort he wants).
His interest in Buddhism conflicts with his interest in the military, as does his status as a new parent, plus his sudden concern about the legality of wars.
As Hinzman says, he had no great "epiphany" -- just a growing dislike for the prospect of war.
It reached a peak when he was due to leave for Iraq.
Up to then, he'd apparently been an adequate soldier, passing all the training tests required.
Most likely is that fear dominated his psyche and after the outrage of 9/11, he realized soldiering wasn't for him.
So he fled to Canada.
I think Canada should send him home to deal with the consequences of his decisions.
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